'Still learning about early T's - Question about sealing

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: 'Still learning about early T's - Question about sealing
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 06:49 pm:

I installed the timing gear cover on my friend's 1914 Model T Touring engine today, but I am stumped by how to seal the camshaft. I am used to later T's with the felt or modern seal pressed into the circular recess surrounding the camshaft's snout. There is no such recess on this cover, just a raised rim around the hole! The camshaft is a new Stipe 250 and the timing gear is a nylon one with the special required nut. Everything lined up nicely, except I couldn't use the cover alignment tool, nor the seal. How does this early cover seal the camshaft? Or isn't there a seal on these early guys? If not, what stops the oil from gushing out around the camshaft nut? I don't see how a felt and brass shield can be installed. What am I missing here?
By the way, this 1914 Touring was built in February of 1914 and has threaded freeze plugs instead of Welch plugs. Odd?
Thanks in advance.
Marshall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 07:38 pm:

If I resized the photo properly, it should appear here. How to seal???
Marshal

l


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 08:59 pm:

Marshall, the timing cover has a double sided groove in it. In the gasket set there should be a felt washer which is stuffed into that groove and it seals on the cam nut. There is was no brass shield used with this set-up.

I do not know why you could not use the tool to centre the cover. Mine locates on that machined land which receives the timer body and you have that land. Is there something interfering on the camshaft snout?

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 09:24 pm:

The centering tools are made in two types. One fits in the recess for the seal, and the other fits into the larger machined ring made for the timer to fit in. The larger tool is the more accurate, because it fits in the same groove the timer fits in.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 10:44 pm:

Thanks for your responses, but I think there is still a problem. I have removed the timing gear cover from the 1914 engine that I installed today. It is the gray cover in the following photos, while the rusty cover came off a later engine. Note in the photos that only the rusty one has a recessed groove around the camshaft snout hole. The alignment tool and seal fit in it perfectly. The gray one, however, has NO recessed area and is solid in this area on both sides. There is no way any seal modern or felt - can be crammed around the very small space between the shank of the camshaft nut and the timing gear cover hole. I have done other T engines before, but have never run into this problem. Is the gray timing gear cover an early one, possibly pre-1912? I still see absolutely no way to seal this configuration.
Please look at the photos and you'll see the problem I am experiencing trying to put a seal of ANY kind in this this timing gear cover. I have to put these into two postings.
Marshall

Timing gear comparison

Tool alignment

Problem cover


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Nelson -------Eastern Iowa on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 10:45 pm:

Marshall,
Just sent you a PM.
Gene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 10:45 pm:

More photos

Problem cover

Tool


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 11:51 pm:

Marshal, Norman hit the nail on the head with his comment about two types of centering tools. You need the one which registers on the machined shoulder in which the timer case sits. You have no register in the grey cover to accept the usual type of seal so your centering tool has no way to locate.

Your photos of the grey cover do not show the detail around the cam hole. Usually there is a double wall around the hole, with a space between them into which the felt seal ring is forced. The
seal is fitted before you attempt to fit the cover. Then the cover with seal in place is fitted in the usual way.

Does this help?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 12:18 am:

Thanks again, everybody, but the problem is NOT getting the cover centered. It slipped into place just fine and is centered around the camshaft nose. The problem is how to seal the camshaft end that sticks through the cover. Maybe the photos I posted don't show the situation clearly, but once again - there is NO recessed area around the hole in the grey cover. It is solid, solid, solid on both sides, precluding an inside seal, too. Allan calls this recessed area a "double wall", which is a good description - except it doesn't exist on this cover. There is no way a centering tool, modern seal or felt can be squeezed between the hole's inside diameter and the camshaft tip/nut. Maybe the larger tool can do the centering job, but it still doesn't answer the question why there is no sealing groove. Look at the very first photo I posted and it should be clear that there is no recessed groove ("double wall") for a seal and no room to cram anything around the camshaft. What you see inside the hole is the end of the camshaft nut. The gap between it and the timing cover hole can be measured in thousandths of an inch = no room for felt or a seal. Without that recessed groove around the camshaft hole for a seal of some kind, I just don't see anyway to stop the flow of oil. Note that there are two raised dimples on the gray cover above the hole. I wonder if this is an aftermarket timing gear cover or just a defective factory cover. Maybe someone at the factory didn't cut the seal groove around the hole? Or are they cast that way?
To solve the problem, I'm just going to clean up the rusty cover with the recessed area and use that one instead. At least the camshaft can be sealed with this cover. It's one %$#&% thing after another with this poor car.
Marshall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 12:49 am:

are you guys saying that the the seal is supposed to go inside the hole in a groove like on the crank seal?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 01:34 am:

Well, the best laid plans of mice and men...I can't use the second timing gear cover with the camshaft seal recess because the bolt hole pattern is different on the right side (oil filler side). This cover comes from a '26-27 engine with generator. Somehow I need to make the timing gear cover from this 1914 engine work and SEAL around the camshaft.
Maybe these photos in the next two postings will better show my problem. I took them at an angle so that the recess in one cover and lack of recess in the other can be seen. Once again, the gray cover is from this 1914 engine and does NOT have a "double wall" recess around the camshaft hole. It's solid metal around the hole. The rusty timing gear cover has the recess, into which the felt or modern seal slips. And they both do. But my problem STILL is how to seal the camshaft snout as it exits the 1914 cover because there is no recess or room for a seal.
This first photo shows the recess around the camshaft hole.
Marshall

Lack of recess

No recess for seal

Recess

No recess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 01:40 am:

1914 timing gear cover without seal recess.

no recess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 02:11 am:

the seal is in the 1914 cover you show. it appears to be the same setup as the crank seal, just not split in two halves


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 08:26 am:

Marshall Dout:

I have run into the timing gear cover that was on the 14. Not sure what the year of those covers are but I believe that they are way earlier than 14. If it was me I would just slap a later one on up to 1918. I have not found one of the covers like was on the 14 from 1912 on up. If you need a 1914 cover and can not find one around where you live give me an email.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 10:10 am:

Marshall
I suggest you speak with John Regan, he knows a lot about the different timing gear case covers.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 12:37 pm:

Marshall:

I suspect the timing cover you have is for an early T. Measure carefully the diameter of the cavity that the timer itself is supposed to sit in and you may notice that it is not a precision machined cavity for the timer as are the later timer covers. That is because the timing cover you have I think is for the so-called 2 piece timer. Those used the Brush to hold the timer in place and there was a felt washer that was sandwiched between the flat surface on your "grey" timing cover and the back surface of the 2 piece timer housing. The cavity in these early timing cover is "as-cast" dimension wise and not precision and while the later timer will seem to fit into that cavity, it is pretty loosy goosy fit. Check it out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 12:47 pm:

Here is a trick, if the cam shaft has end play obtain a bronze cam shim from a T specialty shop, I use Chaffin's because they are only 35 miles from our house. Thin the thickness by milling on aluminum oxide sand paper to get the correct fit. This will remove that nasty noise that sounds like a rod knock. They do sell a lip seal that is better then rope or felt.

If the crank shaft leaks after you get it all put back together simply get a SKF 9253 lip seal and slit it all around. Clean off the front of the casting and glue it into position with "The Right Stuff" made by Permatex because that works the best. You can install that seal when you have the cover off but if you don't do it you can fix it as discussed above.

Most crank and cam seals leak because the shafts are beat up by use over the years.


seal


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 12:53 pm:

I should probably point out that there was no need for a "centering tool" for 1909-1911 timing covers because the timer self centered on the end of the camshaft. The seal was just a thick felt washer as I stated in my previous post. These covers would appear to work fine with a later timer but they don't. I helped a friend diagnose a lousy running 1911 T and it turned out he still had the correct early timing cover on his motor for use with the early timer but had installed a later timer in that cavity without an alignment tool but worse - the timer was made undersize too so it moved sideways and/or up and down when you moved the timer advance lever. The cavity dimension is close to the timer dimension but oversize. I suspect but can't prove that when Ford wanted a better timer setup they adapted a timer to ride in that cavity and then made the cover more precision by machining that cavity to an exact dimension to keep it all centered. Look carefully at a later timer cover and you will see that the timer cavity is very smooth having been machined to a precision size and smoothness while the early cover clearly has not been machined but just cast to size in that same area.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 01:56 pm:

Thanks, Guys! With your input and what Bill Stephen supplied off-line, you have identified this cover as being too early and too unusable for our purposes. How such an early cover ended up on this engine is a mystery, but there it is. I knew I wasn't nuts, claiming there was no way to seal this puppy because of the lack of a recessed groove. As I wrote, this 1914 Touring is teaching me all kinds of new information about the brass cars that doesn't apply to the "black" era. Lots of surprises like this one have awaited me during its mechanical rebuilding.
I'll see if I can find a usable timing cover for this engine with an oil seal groove around the camshaft hole. Dave Huson writes that covers up through 1918 can be used. Anybody have one for sale or trade for this early and presumably rare cover? I have a possible trade working already with an early brass "T" guy in this area, but should it not materialize, I'd like to see this cover go to an early Model T to keep it authentic instead of rusting in my basement.
Thanks again to all, who responded!
Marshall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 02:06 pm:

so heres a question, what is the 1914 style cover seal area supposed to look like?

can anyone posta pic?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jeff cordes on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 02:25 pm:

Just machine out the hole to accept a seal, that's what I always do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, September 04, 2012 - 08:55 pm:

I do the same thing as Jeff, Milling machine, and the old Boring Head. Center on the out side groove, and depth, should be the same as the later one, from the gasket area, to the ledge the seal stops on. Should have a 1, to 1/2 thousandths press, and Black Permatex "300", for seal.

You may want to try an O-Ring, where they have many different sizes, like a Hydraulic, hose/ cylinder Place.

My 1914 front cover has the open seal area. 1912's of there last style had a spring Knob, and, some were not used, because of the over lap. If you have the fan bolt adjustment, should be right for 13-14. Good luck Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 02:16 am:

Like frank said glue a modern seal on the outside. No body will see it and it is fully reversible by scraping it off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 09:53 am:

They redesigned the cover in 1915. It still has the short oil filler snout like the '14, but will accept a modern seal. In 1916, they redesigned the oil filler snout, so you could pour oil in at a faster rate. This cover was used until the starter engines came out.


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