Wooden wheels on a '24 Touring

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Wooden wheels on a '24 Touring
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 09:04 am:

When I bought my '24 touring car, it came with wooden wheels and wooden felloes. The tire sizes are 30x3 1/2 in the rear, and 30x3 in the front, which is pretty normal, as I understand it. My big question is, were wooden felloes still available from the factory as late as '24? I know the workings of Ts real well, but I'm still working on learning what features were associated with certain years, body styles, etc.

I posted some pictures of my T earlier on the forum, but here they are again.

24 Touring Front
24 Touring Rear


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 09:16 am:

Yes, wood felloe nondemountables were standard issue on the cheapest Fords in 1924. Demountables were available as an option. By 1924 all wheels were 30x31/2. These were "square felloe" wheels, as opposed to the wheels with rounded felloes used in the teens.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 09:33 am:

Thanks! That answers my question. I also have some evidence that this car started out as a non-starter car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 09:37 am:

Oh, and I also believe that my car may actually be a late '23, at least according to the engine number, which indicates it was manufactured in November of '23. My engine may even be the original one for the car!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 09:41 am:


30 x 3 round felloe


30 x 3.5 round felloe


30 x 3.5 square felloe nondemountable


30 x 3.5 steel felloe demountable


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 09:48 am:

The 1924 model year begins 8-1-23, so your November car (at least the engine) is early 1924.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 09:49 am:

Steve
I don't think I'd be using that first wheel you showed. The rust dust on the rim indicates the wood felloe is loose on the rim.

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 09:51 am:

Cameron:

Even though your engine corresponds to November 1923 motor number, your car is a 1924 model year which was August 1923 through July 1924.

The high radiator, hood and cowl which your car has, were introduced in the 1924 model year.

There seems to be constant confusion regarding the 1923 and 1924 model years. It's actually pretty cut and dry. However, even Bruce's online encyclopedia creates confusion by using the term "late 1923" which is actually referring to the calendar year, not the model year.

Subsequently, many 1924 Model T Fords are incorrectly referred to as 1923 or late 1923.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 10:04 am:

Anyway, I'm asking because I've been redoing my rear wheels. I took the all the wood out of the rim, removed the spokes, felloes, etc. One one wheel, the felloe was loose, just barely, but not on the other one. Rather than shimming it, I built up the outside with Bondo, and sanding it appropriately. I've also been painting all the wood, truing everything up, etc. It's a LONG, tedious process of filing, sanding, and hand-fitting, but they are coming along nicely.

I was fortunate that all my wood was in good shape! I'm also installing new brake drums, bolts, tires, inner tubes, and flaps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 10:22 am:

I have no idea if the wheels on my '24 Touring (March 1924 engine #) are original or not. But they are all 30 x 3.5 demountables.

my 24 Touring


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 11:25 am:

Cameron, most non-starter cars came with kerosine side lights and tail light.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 11:31 am:

Finally! I found the cord for my digital camera, so now I can upload some pictures of how the wheel is coming along. Keep in mind that I am a college student who lives in an apartment, so I've been rebuilding the wheel on the kitchen floor, and painting everything on the porch! And I did number the spokes. However, I've built up so many areas with Bondo that in all honesty, I'm going to have to refit them anyway. They didn't really need it too badly, but I want to prolong their life as long as possible.

Those spokes are certainly bright... Oh well! I figure that they won't stay that bright for too long.

Spokes
Spokes being painted
Spokes and the rim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 11:33 am:

Willie, as I understand it my car did have kerosene lights, but someone took them off and put them on another T. Also, my taillight fell off! I still have it, it just needs to be redone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 12:31 pm:

I made an important discovery earlier today. DON'T PAINT ON NEWSPAPER! The newspaper will soak up the paint, and it will take forever for it to dry because it becomes so saturated. I let the spokes dry overnight, flipped them over, and the newspaper stuck to the paint and essentially ruined it. Now I have to start over!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 01:50 pm:

Cameron - You might try taking a piece of 2x6 and drilling a series of holes in it about 4" apart. The hole should be the size of the tip of the spoke that fits in the felloe. Then insert the spokes in the holes and they will be free standing so you can paint them all at once.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 02:22 pm:

Cameron:

In my opinion, tightening up a wheel with Bondo is not a good idea and probably won't work.

I have tightened up a good set of wheels by putting wood veneer around the perimeter of the wheel, heating up the rim and shrinking it back on the felloe and aligning all the original holes.

It is a tried and true method of tightening wheels if the wood is good. Others have used sheet metal shim instead of wood veneer.

Also, I would not have completely taken the wheel apart as you have done.

If you search the forum, you should be able to find discussions about shimming the felloe.

This is meant to be constructive criticism so I hope you don't take it the wrong way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 02:33 pm:

Cameron, does your T have an electric starter on it?
Seems like I have read that the "stripped down" T's in that era came with the wood felloe wheels, no starter and no spare.
The transmission cover had the provision for a starter with a blank cover over the hole for it.
Maybe someone else has better info.
Also I noticed it doesnt have the apron below the radiator.
The fenders have the lip on them at the bottom below the headlights so it is a 24 high cowl car.
Maybe the lower apron was removed to install the fender brace.
Nice car!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 04:25 pm:

John,

My T does have a starter, but there's no way to tell if it has been added at a later date, but I do believe that you are correct about the apron having to be removed.

And Erik,

I'm not exactly sure why I felt that I had to take the wheel completely apart, quite honestly. But I did, so now I just have to put it back together. Fortunately, I'm very good with wood working, so it shouldn't be too much of a pain, just more tedious than anything else. As for Bondo, I'm not sure if it will work or not. The only real way to tell is to try it. Now keep in mind that the felloe was BARELY loose. On a humid day, the felloe would be tight. I figure that it's not going to become worse that what it was.

I guess I just like a challenge!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 04:49 pm:


If you hang the spokes you can paint both sides with the same spraying instead of waiting for one side to dry before you paint the other. Hold each spoke by a wire, spray it, and hang it to dry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 05:31 pm:

That's essentially what I do now! I just wish I had a fancy spoke-holding device like yours!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 09:42 pm:

As a flyer when the hair would stand up on the back of my neck I knew it was time to ask some questions about what we were doing or proposing to do -- or key the microphone and say "Callsign Knock it off" repeated 3 times in a row. I have that same felling about your use of Bondo. I do not believe it is designed to carry the load you will be exposing it to on the wheel. If that is correct, then the repair will not last long. If that is correct and the wheel was only a little lose prior to the application of Bondo you will be back to where you were. If the Bondo changes the wood (I don’t have a clue if it would or would not have any impact on the wood for good or for bad – I’ve only used it on metal) then depending on how the wood was changed – things could be worse or better. I have not seen your set up – but it sounds very dangerous on my initial read through. Of course – if you have information saying it works – that is great. But I do not think this is an area to go exploring on your own without some research first.

I do not have time to research the repetitive compression loads that Bondo can withstand and continue to function normally. From my limited use of it as body filler in NON-STRUCTURAL applications – I would recommend you get some professional advice or test the wheel in a manner that if it fails it will not cause any harm.

Possible good reading – I don’t have time to read it – but I’m not betting my life on the structural use of Bondo either. http://strong.groups.et.byu.net/pages/articles/articles/repair.pdf Also there is a good chance there is a 1-800 number you can call and ask the Bondo folks what they think. I have seen it successfully used in a non-structural application to smooth out the inside of rusty rims. But the rim was solid – just sharp pits.

Does anyone know of this being tried in the past and if it was or was not successful?

I've been out in left field before -- so if I missed the turn at second base -- help me get back headed to third base and out of that left field.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 11:41 pm:

Hap,

Bondo is just a test. If it fails, I'll pull the wheels off again and shim them appropriately. The big plus is that I only drive my T about 200 miles a year, and at most, 5 miles per trip, so I don't need it to hold up to the most rigorous tasks. I know the Bondo doesn't change the wood at all from experience. If worse comes to worse, I can make new felloes out of hickory, steam them and bend them myself, and essentially start over. I've steamed and bent wood myself before, and I have the technique down. If even THAT fails, then I'll just send them out to a wheelwright to be redone professionally.

Before I forget, my father (whose knowledge I have great respect for) suggested Bondo. Here's an article that helped convince him:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/15/AR2010021502835. html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 12:08 am:

I also forgot to mention that these are the rear wheels. I would NEVER experiment with the front wheels!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 12:24 am:

As long as you have them apart I wouldn't waste my time with Bondo. That would be like installing a styrofoam shim.

Also, I don't know how you can true up the circumference of the felloe after applying the Bondo.

My advice is to sandblast the rims, put a veneer or sheet metal shim around the felloes, heat the rims on a bed of charcoal and shrink them back on the felloes. Note that the rims do not have to be cherry red - they just need to be expanded enough so the felloes can be tapped back into them.

If I could turn back the clock, my advice also would have been prior to removing the rim, take a gap gauge and put it between the felloe and the rim at in order to determine the thickness of shim that would be required.

Do a search of the forum to get further details on tightening up wood felloe wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 01:15 am:

I did use a feeler gauge on the wheel with the loose felloe. On a cold morning with minimum humidity, it measured, at the loosest part of the felloe, five thousandths, and that was with the wheel jacked up in the air. It was just loose enough that you could feel it if you tried to wiggle the rim. On a humid day, there was no clearance at all. The felloe was tight against the rim. The wheel I've been redoing right now was tight to begin with. I just used a very fine layer of Bondo just to fill in all the imperfections in the felloe, mainly on the outside so I could paint it and make it look nice.

I had the idea of using Bondo because I just didn't know of a shim that could be made thin enough to take up the five thousandths or so of clearance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 02:00 am:

Cameron, I would definitely NOT use bondo. It will fail. The wood felloe should have a tight interference fit in the rim when completed.

If you want to determine the shim thickness, heat the rim then measure the clearance. That will determine the shim thickness you need. The wood will absorb the shimmed thickness as the hot rim cools and shrinks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 02:32 am:

Unfortunately, I really need this wheel to be done by Saturday. Are there any other suggestions? I can always find something that will work, but it would be nice if I don't have to go looking around. If nothing else, I'll just go wandering down the aisles of Lowes. I'm sure I'll stumble across something that will work!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 04:07 am:

If you live in an apartment with a kitchen heat the rim in the oven it might be hard to make a bed of hot coals. Use the bondo for now and expect it to get you just as far as you need it to just before you are prepared to take the wheel off and install some other kind of shim. Normally things like that will work for a week.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 06:30 am:

Cameron Whitaker:

If you are going to drive your T more then across town once a month to some ice cream joint I would strongly advise you start collecting 30 X 3 1/2 DEMOUNTABLE wheels. Back in the T days around here people were smart enough to change to demountable wheels after they came out no matter what year the car was.
Not only is it much more work changing a tire out on the road on a non demountable wheel but its more work to tighten a loose non demountable wheel as you have found out. On a demountable wheel if you get a flat out on the road you just slap a spare on and go. If you need to tighten a demountable wheel its a lot easier to just replace the loose spokes than it is to fix a non demountable wheel.
Driving Ts is supposed to be fun so its your choice. What ever wheels you end up with is your selection no one else.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 09:27 am:

I'm with Dave on wheel choice. Yes, non-demountable clinchers are correct for this car. But so are demountables, which were an available option for 1924 cars. The wheels on my 1915 runabout will remain round-felloe non-demountables because that's what 1915 T's had. I expect that to be a local car. I don't see it going on any long trips. For touring, I'll use a touring car. The 1923 touring had the stock wheels when I got it, but it now has demountables all around for the reasons Dave explained.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 10:25 am:

That's true, but Dave was correct on another aspect. I'll drive it to the local eatery once a month or so. My T lives at a museum over 100 miles away, so I only get to play with it once or twice a month.

Plus, I have no money being a college student and all. Demountables are just not an option for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 10:40 am:

"I'm sure I'll stumble across something that will work!"

To beat a dead horse, here's how it works: the pressure of the rim contracted around the felloe in and of itself is what keeps the rim on the felloe and the wheel tight. This is assuming that the wood is good and not rotten or extremely shrunk and dried-out.

The rivets assist the rim in staying centered on the felloe but the rivets do not assure that that rim stays on the felloe. Again, it is the inward pressure of the rim against the felloe the keeps the rim on.

A wheel may LOOK tight (no obvious gaps) but that does not mean it is actually tight.

The felloe is made up of two halves. Tightening a wheel involves attaching a shim (either veneer or sheet metal) on each half of the felloe, heating up the rim to expand it and then tapping the felloe into the rim and aligning the original holes with drifts/punches. As the rim cools, it will shrink and, if you have used a thick enough shim, will be extremely tight against the felloe.

Once the rim is cool, minor adjustments can be made to make sure the wheel is true prior to installing the rivets.

A rim can be heated on a bed of charcoal, with a torch, or in an oven. I used a 220 stove element wrapped around the rim. A regular kitchen stove is not big enough to hold a Model T rim but a commercial stove may be big enough (years ago friend of mine managed a machine shop that had a commercial stove and he heated up Model T rims in it for the wheel tightening procedure).

The rim does not have to be cherry red or hot enough so the wood is scorched. It has to be expanded enough so the felloe can be tapped in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 11:51 am:

Erik,

I appreciate your concern, but my big issue was finding a shim that would work. My first wheel went together last night exactly as you described, and it didn't need any shimming at all. I heated up the rim using the four electric burners on my stove. The rim was just the right size to cover all four of the burners (and it also helps that I painted it with barbecue paint). I turned them on the lowest setting and waited about half-an-hour to make sure that the rim had become an even temperature. This method worked nicely because I didn't actually have to move the hot rim at all.

I turned the burners off and placed the felloes, spokes, etc. (which had been already assembled and checked for trueness) in the rim, making sure that all the holes lined up properly. I'm going to wait to install the the rivets until Saturday. They have a nice, big anvil there at the museum that should help a lot. Anyway, the felloe is real tight in the rim, and the wheel runs amazingly true.

Now back onto the subject of shims for the wheel with the loose felloe. While wandering around through Lowes, the idea for a perfect shim struck me. How about the metal blade from a cheap tape measure? It was the right width, it's metal, and it's made from really tough steel. I'm going to epoxy it to the felloe just to keep it in place for installation. Once the felloe is installed, friction and the rivets will hold it place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dexter Doucet on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 12:01 pm:

I like that idea Cameron! But then again I just might be a dumbass compared to some of these fellas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 02:42 pm:

Putting the rim on the stove top is a good idea. I never would have thought of that.

Regarding shim material: I used hardwood veneer. Veneer is available in various thickness. Also, big box home improvement stores such as Lowe's usually carry strips of veneer in rolls for edging, although it may or may not be thick enough for what you are trying to do. Sheet metal also works and you can buy it in various gauges. Either way, I would tack it on and not use epoxy.

Regardless if you use veneer or sheet metal for a shim, it must be thicker than the gap you are trying to fill so the rim will be tight when you shrink it back on.

Here is the veneer edging from Lowe's:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_16546-99899-34250_0__?productId=3603330&Ntt=wood+veneer& pl=1&currentURL=&facetInfo=

http://www.lowes.com/pd_16547-99899-28010_0__?productId=3603332&Ntt=wood+veneer& pl=1&currentURL=&facetInfo=

In order to see if the wheel runs true, you will need to install it on the car and watch it turn. Do not rivet the rims until you have fine-tuned and trued-up the wheels.

If it is a rear wheel, install it and with the axle still on the jack stand and have someone crank the motor over with the transmission in high gear.

Using a reference point (such as a block of wood and a ruler on the garage floor), slowly spin the wheel and determine where the run-out point is on the rim.

When you have determined where the run-out is, turn the wheel so the portion of the rim where the run-out is faces the floor and lower the car so the weight rests on the rim against the floor. (You may want to put a piece of rubber or a short wooden board between the rim and concrete garage floor).

Using a block of hardwood and a hammer, tap on the wood felloe near the floor. Tap on the inside of the felloe to move the rim in - tap on the outside of the felloe to move the rim out. Because the weight is on the rim, the rim should stay stationary and the felloe should move.

Repeat the steps until the wheel is to your satisfaction.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 03:32 pm:

Thanks for the advice. Again, my T is about 100 miles away, and all I have here are the wheels. When I get to the museum, I'll follow your steps exactly and let you know how it goes.

Also, I had already considered tacking on the shim. I made a second run to Lowes a little while ago and bought a bunch of small tacks for that very reason.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 04:03 pm:

A measuring tape may serve as a shim if it's flat, but most of them are curved. A typical tape that curls up on the edges is going to be uncooperative. It won't want to follow the curve of the felloe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 05:13 pm:

That's what I thought too. Turns out that it's not a problem, as long as you attach it with the numbers facing up. I tried wrapping the tap around a round object at the store just to make sure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 05:19 pm:

Steve,

I just tried it on the felloe, and you're right! It doesn't work! I have no idea as to why it worked in the store.

It's no problem, though. I'll use that big wind-up spring that it uses to retract the tape as a shim. I have lots of experience with those types of springs from repairing old phonographs. I even have a few on hand, but they are just too thick.


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