Descending steep hill ?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Descending steep hill ?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Kociemba-Estacada, Oregon on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 04:50 pm:

I am thinking of taking a road trip in my 24 Roadster over the Cascades near Mt. Hood. Just a little concerned about descending some of the steep grades. The car does not have Rocky Mt. brakes. Any advice?

Thanks,
Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 05:01 pm:

Life insurance quotes, pre - arranged funeral services.

Just kidding. If the car is in good shape you just need to plan on going down the other side in the same gear as when you climbed. In other words, low gear.

If you have a Ruckstell or other drive ratio device then you ought to wait until you have better brakes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 05:08 pm:

Dave ;Kociemba:

You should have enough compression in your motor that you should not have to use your brakes very often. I seldom if ever even use my ruckstell going going down hill. What is the grade on your down hills ? If your grades are not steeper than 5% I don't know why you would be using your brakes !!!! I seldom find that State Highways are more than 4.5% for any long stances. I have been up to the Mount Hood Lodge with 100 other Model Ts and no one that know of had a problems.
Do it you will enjoy it. In fact I think you will enjoy it so much you too will go up to the Lodge.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 05:15 pm:

The only thing between you and free wheeling is a pinion with out cracks, and a pinion key, that isn't sheared.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 06:19 pm:

Royce,, I don't get what you said ?? If you have a Ruckstell it will allow yo to run in R low and F High maybe,,,,Would that be a bad thing ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 06:55 pm:

Mary and I went on a 200 mile Santa Clara Speedster run with no Rocky Mountain Brakes and adjusted the brake bands about five times during the run. We came home and installed Rocky Mountain Brakes. Humble Howard Genrich and I put on a tour on Santa Catalina Island just 26 miles off shore from Long Beach, CA. We had 20 miles of ten percent grade hills for the tour and would not let folks attend without them. One of the hills was four miles long with no turnouts. We went over that road four times. Twice up and twice down. We did let one guy go with a brand new 1915 restoration. He had installed KEVLAR bands and when his brakes failed he used low and reverse, broke transmission drums and came home on the trailer with tears in his eyes from almost being killed. Much of the road was one lane with no place to turn off. We advised him and relented because his car was so nice and he almost died. He did die from a great fall two years later, perhaps it was meant to be.

In the old days the T drivers carried a chain. At the top of a long hill they looked for a log, hooked it up and dragged the log down the hill to keep from speeding up. Either you arrange to have logs put at the top of each hill on your trip, or get some brakes. Life is cheap in some peoples eyes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 06:59 pm:

Jeery, perhaps Royce was being cautious, as some Ruckstels have been known to go into neutral and hence no brakes. If running a 3:1 diff ratio in a car, you will have far less engine braking capability. I'm a low gear guy on steep downgrades. Better late than never arriving.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 07:07 pm:

A Ruckstell will increase your transmission braking power, however, it can get stuck between low and high, so always use auxiliary brakes when you have Ruckstell.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 07:31 pm:

Allen brings up a good point, my 15 has 3:1 ratio it's great for long trips, good road speed and keeps the rpms low but I find when touring with stock ratio T's going down hill is horrible as they all are going about 7 mph slower and you brake more and harder then if you had stock ratio


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 07:33 pm:

A Ruckstell would need to be worn really bad to be able to go into neutral. Virtually impossible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 07:56 pm:

The general rule is to not go down a hill an any higher gear then you can go up it. If it takes low gear to go up, then use low gear to go down. You will be going the same speed up or down and should be relatively safe.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 07:58 pm:

I am completely stock with the exception of the Ruckstell and I go down some steep hills with the engine compression doing the vast majority of the work in slowing me down. Never had a problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 08:18 pm:

I'm with Kenny on this one, it might jump out of gear but would have to be badly worn to do so.

Doc Pruden showed me how to get a neutral in a Ruckstell, you have to make a flat and then a third V on the peak of the center of the two V grooves the shifter tongue slots into so the tongue can lock into it and prevent it flipping into high or low range.

If the Ruckstell jumps out of gear the long shifting gear has worn teeth. Its not easy to see that the mesh may not be good enough to lock in correctly. Have good parts in your axle and there is no getting neutral.

Here is a photo of a worn and brand new gear, you can see the difference. Problem is the gear looks good as it gets nicely turned down engaging in the steel gear and looks Ok but its short.

To test it find steep hill that would be safe coast out of if needed, put the Ruckstell into low range and brake harder than would normally be necessary if its worn enough it will jump out of gear. Like the rest of your car all the components should be in good condition.

ruck01


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 08:40 pm:

A point to read . . . . . Folks used to machine the shifting system so they could get a free neutral and then they got into trouble. Many Ruckstells have been so modified intentionally in order to obtain a true neutral.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 08:56 pm:

Kenny,

I have a Ruckstell rebuilt like new. On rare occasion it has gone into neutral. I made it into a large drum unit so I would have real backup brakes.

Its not near impossible.

Ted


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 08:58 pm:

Theoretically, if you go down the hill in low, should the low speed band not slip? If you're allowing the compression to hold you back, the rpm's of the engine may get to be so high that the band may not hold. For sure, the rpm's will probably exceed what is normal in low gear, especially if the hill is steep.

I went down a hill in low gear once and that is exactly what happened. Since then, I go down in high gear, throttle closed, and alternate between the brake and reverse pedal to slow down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 09:18 pm:

Dan B.
The low speed pedal should be held down firmly enough so that the low speed band does not slip. Same thing holds for going up hill or going down hill. The whole idea is to use the engine compression for braking without slipping the low speed or reverse or brake bands that will build up heat.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 10:05 pm:

Ever heard of the Rosenthal Award?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Wednesday, September 05, 2012 - 10:51 pm:

If you have a Ruckstell or an old Warford, aux brakes are a must!!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 12:22 am:

Any time I had to fix a Ruckstell for a Neutral problem, it was from a Twisted fork, not running true in the shift collar, and would bind in the middle.

Or a bent fork to far from one side, or the other from trying to jam it into gear, with the wrong engine speed, or pushing, or pulling to fast.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 12:22 am:

You guys have me freaked out a bit.. I just put in a Ruckstell and I think I need to go beat on this thing to see if it will pop out of gear. I have a 26' so I have a better brake and I make sure my rear brakes will skid the tires to be safe in case the drive line takes a trip south.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 12:35 am:

A few years ago I was following a T with a Ruckstell down a hill when it popped out of gear. The standard handbreak did not hold. They ran it off the road, into a ditch and flipped it. 2 ended up in hospital.

Is this the normal way that they fail; going down hill ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 12:38 am:

just ine your e brake shoes and use that as a backup for that oh....something moment. ive got a old worn out ruxtell, never ever ever ever had it pop grom low to high, or high to low. sometimes when im rolling forward i can pop it into neutral, but if that happens you shove it back.

i downshift my ruxtell when i go downhill, theres no going into neutral, it pops over no indecisivness about it.

but as with any vehical you should have two forms of brakes. usuall its mechanical/ hydraulic, then engine braking. but with the T its all through the engine.

but ive found lined e brake shoes do the job well. ive used it before when brake band wore out of adjustment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 01:14 am:

I would like the experts ( Glen Chaffin-Stan Howe) to explain how its possible to get neutral. Obviously if parts are worn or modified then its possible. As there are some who can get neutral then what is happening??

Its over 30 years ago since both of my cars fitted with Ruckstells have been apart and I have never had any inkling of getting neutral.

Where I live the terrain is similar to San Francisco real steep hills and never a problem but I can't personally understand how neutral is possible unless some part is not doing its job properly.

Herm's story again points to bits not working as designed. The spring on the selector should be so strong the changing gear has no choice but to be in high or low. If everything is in order not bent, worn or modified.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 01:25 am:

Walt Rosenthal was an early MTFCA member who helped a lot of people. He had an aux tranny go into neutral going down a hill. Car flipped and he was killed. Wheel brakes were in his garage waiting to be installed. The Rosenthal Award is given every year to the person who has done the most for the T hobby.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 01:34 am:

Lee got a neutral. The shift tower broke... voila!



He went out of gear (service brake useless) and didn't get on the hand brake before he hit my car (good thing as only one side was adjusted to work). My Rockies plus transmission brake was able to stop both cars.

If you have non-stock parts be sure to have extra brakes. My car has no non-stock driveline parts, but still has the extra brakes. It's now 2 years and he hasn't put that car back on the road yet!

Years ago I had a 1913 with a Ruckstell and with a load of people in the car it found neutral... don't know how to this day. Took a long time for the hand brake to stop it!

Dave if your car is stock then I recommend making sure your brakes all are working and then drive the hills like you have no brakes. If you have an auxilliary transmission then look under your car and see if you have auxilliary brakes. If you don't see any there then go get some. Four wheel brakes or working hydraulics might be good!

I'm assembling another 1913... it will be all stock running gear, except for a set of AC auxilliary brakes.

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 03:00 am:

I have seen several Ruckstells go into neutral (including one I had in one of my own cars). Some people have found that with the engine off, they can carefully set the shift handle for neutral to roll the car around the shop. When it happens, does it really matter if it is worn, bent, broken, or what?
Any T being driven very much, especially in mountainous or high traffic areas needs to have two, well maintained, and totally independent braking systems. (That, by the way is my dislike of most Rocky Mountain brake installations.)
'26/'27 rear end brakes are a good thing (although on earlier cars I prefer earlier rear ends). Good inside lined brakes in a small drum rear end can lock both rear wheels IF they are properly adjusted. That was what I had in my '15/'16 center-door, and I used the brake handle a lot.
AC outside brakes are a good step up from the inside shoes. I had a set many years ago and loved them. They are available new.
There are many options for brakes for Ts. I prefer brakes that are mostly era correct.
But that is me.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 07:19 am:

The tranny brake is safer for a max effort stop - as long as it's working. Regardless of different traction under the two rear wheels, it will stop straight ahead, thanks to the differential.

Different traction under the two rear wheels with rear wheel brakes puts the car into a spin. Think about it.

The only real improvement is front brakes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Kociemba-Estacada, Oregon on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 10:34 am:

I am certainly glad that I asked this question. I think that I am going to side with being safe than sorry, my car is all stock. The Salmon are running in the Columbia River right now. I think that I will go fishing, and start shopping for a set of Rocky Mt. Brakes. Thank you all for your input.

Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 11:11 am:

If the hill is too steep to go down in high without riding the brake, it should be descended in low or Ruckstell. DO NOT alternate the brake and reverse. The reverse drum is weak and will easily crack if overheated. Reverse should only be used for a brake as a last resort when foot brake, and hand brake are not enough to stop in a true emergency.

For normal downhill the rule is to use the same gear you would go up in. If the engine revs too much in low, either you have a low compression problem with the engine, or it is a very steep hill. In that case pumping the brake on and off will control the engine speed. If you usually drive in mountains or hilly country, auxiliary brakes are a must, even with the large drum 26 brakes. With auxiliary brakes, you still have the compression of the engine, the transmission brake as well as the rear wheel brakes to hold you back, but with the large wheel drum brakes you go into neutral when the lever is pulled back.
Norm
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 12:50 pm:

I think I read most of the above posts and did not see any mention of a BROKEN U-JOINT or broken thrust washers which can allow the ring and pinion to separate enough to create a neutral.
I got lucky at a tour in Missouri when a U-joint broke at a red light. With the use of the emergency brake (with linings), I was able to coast off the road and go for my trailer.
THE CAR NOW HAS OUTSIDE BRAKES.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 03:02 pm:

Bud and Ginny Scudder had the rear end fail on a steep uphill on the Natchez trace Tour a few years ago driving their 27 Fordor. The car went out of control backwards down the hill with no brakes and no transmission. Both survived with terrible injuries. Bud died about 2 years later from liver failure. He likely would have lived longer if not for all the pain pills he had to take after the wreck.

On Bud's car the reproduction solid roller pinion bearing fell apart.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 12:54 pm:

Dave,
No one has mentioned how the Rockies work great in forwards motion, but do not provide adequate stopping in reverse. So don't try and stop on a hill and expect Rockies to do much to keep it from rolling back. That is why I am putting a set of AC brakes on my next 1913.

Also be aware that after you wet your drums (who can resist fording a stream crossing?) all outside brakes suffer (stop working) until dried again. The front brakes on Ralph's roadster above are probably good even when wet... I think they are salvaged from a Nash Metro. Sidebar: which comes first, wet drums or pants?

Another thing to think about is the cheesy stamped steel drum Ford used. My '13 is getting cast iron VW (Jetta) drums turned down to Ford size. I expect better braking from the parking brake AND the AC outside brakes.

Even so my car will only have rear brakes, RD points out (correctly) that most of the weight is up front and in stopping more shifts forwards. If you only had 2 wheel brakes the place to have them is up front.... of course a T spinning down the road with locked front wheels probably isn't a lot of fun.

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 03:48 pm:

A T spinning down the road with one rear wheel locked is a guaranteed thrill, and far more likely to happen.

The tranny brake will always stop you straight ahead, thanks to the differential. Stopping distance is determined by the wheel with the least traction, but it still goes straight.

With wheel brakes on rear only, one rear wheel off the pavement means that wheel has reduced traction, while the other still has full traction, spinning the rear around. That's a big deal, and will take luck and skill to recover from.

With front wheel brakes, a wheel off the pavement has reduced traction, so the braking of the other wheel pulls the car back onto the road.

rdr


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