T Bucket Big Block with Brass Radiator

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: T Bucket Big Block with Brass Radiator
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Lee Falconer on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 01:54 am:

I have emailed the following letter to Lee of Brass Works and wondered if anyone else might have an idea on how I can fix my problem:


Hi Lee,

I have a problem I would like your advice on. I purchased my T Bucket, powered with a big block chevy motor with the Brass Radiator already in place. The radiator was fine until I decided to have it rodded out since I had no idea how old it was or how clogged it was.

The first radiator shop rodded it out and said the radiator was actually flowing OK, but that after the rodding out, it should be even better. Two days after installing it back on my T Bucket it started to leak at the top and bottom soldered seams. I took it back to the radiator shop and he re did it and said he pressure tested it up to 50 pounds and it held well. I even had him test the new radiator cap I had just purchased and it was working fine at around 15 pounds of pressure.

A few days after re-installing it , it started leaking again at the top seam. Instead of taking it back to the same radiator shop, I took it to another shop that has been in business for over 30 years and has a good reputation in town.

He informed me that the top tank was flexing which was causing the seam to let go, and that I needed a baffle installed in the top tank. He installed a baffle and re-soldered the seams. A week after re-installing the radiator back on my T Bucket, it started leaking again at the seam in front of the radiator under the “Ford” name.

I took it back to him last week and he repaired it. I drove it approximately 4 miles, shut it down, put it back in the garage and two days later it started leaking at the top seam under the name, Ford.

I am at wits end and don’t know what to do. I guess I should have left it alone since it had been functioning well over the years the previous owner had the car.

The temperature did not go over 180 degrees since the last 3 repairs (I had purchased a bigger electric fan that keeps the car cooler) I assume the pressure goes up after I shut the motor off, but could the increased pressure be causing the seam to give way?

I am considering going to a polished stainless steel radiator from Speedway, but it a couple of inches taller and not as thick as the Brass one.

I would sure like to hear what you think of the situation.

Respectfully,

David Falconer


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 05:02 am:

The problem is that your big block motor is producing too much heat.
There are a number of simple ways to fix it:
1. Assuming that your big block motor has 8 cylinders you could remove 4 spark plugs. There might be a slight popping sound but the heat will be reduced.
2. You could also consider running the water through a bucket full of ice before sending it to the radiator.
3. A more drastic way to decrease the heat is to cut the motor in half with a saber saw. It may take awhile to do but the benefits of lower gas consumption and a view of the inside of the motor is worth the time spent.
4. I know of a guy in Kansas - now Nebraska - that has a legacy 4 cylinder Ford motor that might fit into your T bucket. It comes with a fantastic 2 speed transmission that includes a "sometimes" internal brake.
5. Then there is a guy in TEXAS that swears that a rebuilt water pump will fix any Ford with an overheating problem. The last we saw of him he was being chased by the anti-water pump deformation and chowder society league but you might be able to find him eating chocolate in Hershey PA.

Please let us know if your having any other problems. I understand that some of the guys on here have extensive experience with vinegar, non-multigrade oil, and single malt whiskey.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 05:08 am:

i heard the new radiators will leak too because of the new metal they try to pass off as "brass" is too brittle. Soldering in a ton of gussets might help but also might cost a lot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 06:14 am:

If he told you that it was pressure tested to 50 lbs he was pulling your leg, that would have turned your T brass radiator (or any radiator for that matter) into swollen ball and split every seam and tube, make sure it's a purpose built radiator to even take pressure, if just built to T specs a 4 pound cap would even be to much, that would split seams.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 06:15 am:

David, the problem your going to have here is that we are are into STOCK Model T's. Modified fiberglass hot rodded with v-8 installed aren't discussed here. We deal with wooden wheels, stock 4-cylinder engines and 30 x 3" tires here.

That being said, may I direct you to some sites that may help you.

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/index.php


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 06:36 am:

Kep
It is a well know fact that new radiators leak if they contain old water.
To fix this you need to make new water by mixing 2 parts of hydrogen with one part oxygen and gently stirring until it sloshes.
Don't add to much oxygen because it could become H2O2 and you'll bleach your hair.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 07:31 am:

You need water wetter combined with that coolant gel...

Black pepper will fix any leak. It's even better than Barr's. Don't use an egg, unless you like your eggs poached.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Cassara Long Island, NY on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 07:56 am:

Rick you forgot the Spam. It needs to be a balanced mix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ex trooper on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 08:11 am:

Black pepper will fix any leak. It's even better than Barr's. Don't use an egg, unless you like your eggs poached.



Two poached well, (6 minute eggs) worked well on mine. Like that's ALL thats' worked short of a re-core coming up this winter. Its held water all summer and runs at 175 at full bore. Must be low cholesterol eggs! troop


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 08:31 am:

If your 15 lb cap is working properly, it should never go over 15 lbs of pressure.

Try a different cap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 08:52 am:

I'm dismayed that nobody has addressed the real problem and its obvious solution. When a radiator designed for NO pressure bursts under high pressure, it should be repaired with a combination of JB Weld, modified bitumen roofing tar, and duct tape. Ideally these materials will be purchased at farm auctions or estate sales for pennies on the dollar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 09:09 am:

Why are poached eggs ok, but poaching is illegal?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 10:18 am:

David,
Do you have an original Model T brass radiator on the T Bucket? If so, there are usually problems with overheating when they are on the original Model T 4-cyl engines. A lot of Model T owners have replaced the old radiators with new ones from Brass Works. Those little brass radiators are simply inadequate for a modern engine. I thought there were special brass radiators being made for V8 engines on a hot rod?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 10:24 am:

I think you should go with the stainless rad. We're happy to see Speedway Motors supported..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 10:33 am:

It is probably one of these:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Brassworks-T-Bucket-Radiator,24923.html

If it's building too much pressure, the cap isn't working properly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Wicker on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 10:42 am:

Sometimes folks put c-ment in the water jackets of dems big blocks so they can punch em out bigger.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Deckman, Ogden Utah on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 11:10 am:

I do not like anything but original myself but WOW. I laughing so hard I'm crying.

I thought I was rough with hot rodders, I have just been schooled!! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 11:22 am:

Fred,

Seems to me the coolant is too heavy, I suspect its 2H2O. His oxygen has been contaminated by deuterium and the cooling has deteriorated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 11:41 am:

Seriously David, I had a larger thicker radiator made by Brassworks to cool our 70 horsepower Rajo powered T Speedster. They made the top tank out of a thicker brass sheet and told us not to use a pressure cap of more than seven (7) pounds. The core reaches all the way back to the rear of the top tank. Be sure to use a large over-flow bottle. Regular Model T's do not use a pressure cap because they only develop 20 horsepower, don't have a water pump, and boil when going slow up a hill. The Model T brass radiator has large surfaces and those large pieces of brass flex easily.

Yes this website is for real Model T's with their 170 cubic inch four cylinder engines and not for Hot Rods, although some of us modify our engines to the extreme. One of our members just turned 225 with a turbocharged Model T engined Streamliner at the Salt Flats a couple of weeks ago. So not all of us are die hard true died in the wool stock Model T folk.

You will have to excuse some of the folk who didn't realize you were innocent as well as serious and attempted to poke fun at you. My idea of selecting a lower pressure radiator cap and a large over-flow bottle should work for you. I was on the Great Race across the Country in a big 366 cubic inch four cylinder engine powered 1913 Cadillac and we had two one gallon containers hooked up as over-flow bottles. As the radiator cools it sucks the water back out of the over-flow bottles and puts it back where it belongs. Well not really, technically, the ambient air pressure actually pushes the water back into the radiator Some of the real race cars use up to and even over 300 pound pressure systems with their 1000 horsepower engines but they don't use T radiators.

22


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 12:06 pm:

David, Lee at Brassworks builds radiators for all kinds of hot rods with very good results...but his hot rod radiators are very different than your Grandpa's radiator. 15 psi shouldn't blow a seam, so I too suspect a bad cap or the brass is so brittle it is actually cracking at the seam, or the radiator is mounted so rigidly that the radiator has no room to expand and contract. Good luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Hoffman - Gold Country of Calif. on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 12:57 pm:

Apparently none of the forum members have ever taken their stock T to a car show with newer cars and been ridiculed. Good for you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 01:47 pm:

Lee at Brassworks stands behind his work and will return calls like a gentleman. Have you talked to him about returning it to him for his consideration of searching for a solution ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 03:02 pm:

I don't think he mentioned that Lee made the radiator, just that the car had one and he emailed Lee for advice. Who knows what run of the mill radiator it might have on it....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 03:27 pm:

The one I had made for me was of a thicker stock, a thicker core, and did have the nests for the hood to fit flush in the indentations. It has a dummy cap and the real one is located on the back of the top tank and is fitted with a pressure cap and an over-flow tube properly rigged. The actual top tank is two inches thicker from front to back and the core runs to the back of the top tank. It could have up to eight or ten rows, I just don't know.

I don't like to be rude but there is usually a reason a car is sold. It sounds like the radiator shop that did the repair simply did not do a proper soldering job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darold Kohout on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 04:10 pm:

We have found that most, not all, low pressure or no pressure early radiator top plates and tanks have a flat surface that are soldered together. Higher pressure modern 50'-60's tanks have a channel design at the solder joint area that nests into the plate for the core that also has a channel. This helps to make a stronger seal. Like a U channel fitting over a C rib.

We learned this from folks who purchased a 'stock' radiator designed for a no-pressure or 4 pound cap then installed a bigger engine, installed the 15-18 pound cap to cool the engine and blew out the seams. Just FYI from our experience. Not gospel.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 09:23 pm:

Well, Since DLF has not responded to this site,
he has either solved his problem or realized this is not a friendly place to be. Lee at Brassworks will solve his problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard D. Dennis on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 09:36 pm:

David, is you radiator mounted solid to your frame or does it have springs so it can flex? I imagine that big block dances around alot more than the original 4 cylinder did and I wonder if that isn't overstressing your top tank.

Howard Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Lee Falconer on Thursday, September 06, 2012 - 10:11 pm:

I would like to respectfully thank all those on this forum who tried to give me serious advice. I did not know I was in the wrong forum for my type of car so I apologize to everyone.

My Grandpa taught me to give everyone the respect and dignity they deserve, so for the few of you that were kind to me, "Thank you, Gentlemen." And for the rest of you, "Thanks for nothing."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, September 07, 2012 - 12:46 am:

ChucK
I took my long ago restored T to a car show and won third place out of about 30 vehicles in the pre-50's class.

I had a poster that explained the car's history that included a picture of the original owner and his family, me taking it to a football game in the 60's, and my grandchildren getting ready for a parade a year ago.
I started it with the crank a few times, let kids sit in it and answered a ton of questions.

A "granola gal" with a flower in her long hair and a tear in her eye said that it was the most beautiful thing she had ever seen and an older guy told me that my 19 T was the only real car in the show because the others were only ego sleds.

The shiny car crowd cheered when they announced that I got third place. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Hoffman - Gold Country of Calif. on Friday, September 07, 2012 - 11:19 am:

Fred,
That's my point. If the shiny car crowd can welcome a restored original, maybe the opinionated old purists could be a little more tolerant in return.
Personally, I love all old Fords, original or not. I "butchered" many before I restored my '24 so I guess I can claim membership in both crowds.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, September 07, 2012 - 11:30 am:

Apparently what you have is out/no longer doing the job. Time to look for something modern that's made for what you're trying to do. It worked before you messed with it but that point is moot. As mentioned above if it's a T rad. it's not made to be pressurized anyway. Plus I'll bet you'll get a modern for a heck of a lot cheaper than a replacement T type.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, September 07, 2012 - 11:34 am:

"The modifications on MY car make it safer, more reliable and improve it’s appearance. The modifications on YOUR car are unnecessary, troublesome, gaudy and ruin the whole character of the Model T!"

Still, I have never understood why a big engine in the front of a small car. It can't safely go as fast as the power would take it. It can't corner good. It rides rough. What can it do good? A friend sold his Tbucket right after he did a neck snapping spin out in an intersection.

I went for sports cars instead of big Detroit Iron as soon as I could afford a car. They are light and nimble. It just took me another forty years to find the Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Friday, September 07, 2012 - 11:57 am:

Ralph, they are made to do one thing. GO in a straight line quickly. Turning and stopping are overrated. I built one years ago. It first was a cornering car and then I got tired of that and wanted to go fast in a straight line. It did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Friday, September 07, 2012 - 12:38 pm:

What can any Model T "do good"?

My Model T serves no practical purpose anymore, but it sure is fun to enjoy with my kids. If someone else gets as much joy from their bigblock Chevy powered Model T as I do with my stock one, who am I to tell them they (or their car) are wrong?

I like bigblock Chevys AND Model T's, but I'm not really into bigblock Chevys IN Model T's... I do have a ~550hp 427 BBC on a stand less than 10 feet away from my T though. I hope no funny business happens between them when I turn out the lights at night.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Friday, September 07, 2012 - 12:42 pm:

Rick, Did you mommy take the nipple away to soon? If you had grown some balls you would like a monster tearing the hides up. The screaming of the motor, the smell of burning rubber. Feeling the torque mashing you back in the seat,Wow.
If you dont like that you need to live in a glass house and plant a funny weed.
The english like "sports cars" cause they cant make HORSEPOWER. Go for a real hot dog ride sometime and enjoy life. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Friday, September 07, 2012 - 09:34 pm:

Hey Scott,

Horsepower and sports cars are not mutually exclusive. With about 350-400 hp in a 2200 lb car, I've left a 50 yard burnout in front of the local pub. That's easy. Getting all that power hooked up to challenge the sportbikes while carving in the canyons is harder. I've spent more than twice the money on chassis, suspension and brakes in my 914 than I've spent on the motor. IMHO, most muscle cars are low-tech toys, real race cars are more closely related to sports cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Friday, September 07, 2012 - 09:57 pm:

Mr,Falconer,it was tested at to much pressure.Take it back and let him resolder it.
THen make sure the radiator is mounted in a way to allow some flexing at the mounts,then make sure the drain tube to the burp tank is open or the tube is open to drain to ground.Your top hose connection can also cause stress on the top section of the radiator if the motor shifts alot in the chassis.Make sure there is some flex in the top hose connection to allow for it to move some BEFORE the motion carrys to the radiator.
IF the radiator uses a pressure cap,it is most likely was not a stock brass T radiator but a replica sold by Speedway or other companys.I can see where a person could change the top of a radiator to accept a pressure cap,but I can not see gain from it in a stock application.


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