So which way does this thing go?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: So which way does this thing go?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Friday, September 07, 2012 - 11:59 pm:

While I'm certainly learning much about working on a car with my 22 Roadster, I'm also learning that it only takes a simple question to spark quite A LOT of discussion on this site! And I think it's great!

So here goes with my second question...

When I drop the top on my little two-seater, the roof collapses nicely, and it is obvious that one of the bows disconnects from its extended position to be situated and connected to the small 'finger' located further down the main bow. (I hope I've explained that clearly enough. I figure if you're going to answer this question, you'll know what I'm talking about.) I notice that there are 'fingers' on both the inside AND the outside of the main bow. The removable bow can apparently be attached to either the inside or the outside.

My question is (finally....) which is correct, and is there some pin/screw/kotter/etc. that should secure this bow snugly into place, or just the tension of the bow itself?

Perhaps this is a naive question, or I could be just missing the obvious, but if you didn't read my earlier post, please recognize that I am pretty "green" in this field. (And that's not in the thumb, envy, or tree-hugging reference.)

Anxiously awaiting your feverish feedback on this somewhat simple subject! Thanks, in advance!

Trey


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Peterson on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 12:19 am:

The lower eye goes to the top support bracket at the side of the seat and the forward bow moves down from the middle of the upright bow to the upper (or forward.facing) eye when the top is up. There should also be a tab on the upper side of the forward bow that fits into a "cup" on the upright bow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 12:26 am:

You are correct about moving the bow when folding down. On the early cars there was brass cotter pins held to the bow by a small leather strap. The later cars used a bent length of wire that wrapped round the bow and the two ends goes into the bow pin hole.
These are both available at Snyder as part number T-24563, while the leather & pin are p/n T-24562-F.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 11:34 am:

Trey and Dale,
Could you post some pictures showing your bows? I have a 22 roadster and your description confuses me. I know how to put my top down, but had a problem with the top boot. I had to have one custom made because the top bow is farther back when it is folded down. See my picture attached. There are two "eyes" on the center bow. I use the upper one when the top is up, and the lower one when the top is down. It still stacks farther back when down
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 03:00 pm:

Norm-

I'll get a few pics on here soon. Could you show a side view of your bows both UP and DOWN? That is the root of my initial question. Meanwhile, tell me about the two straps on the front of your top. I have nothing of that sort on my car. Am I missing something?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 03:04 pm:

Norm-

I'll get a few pics on here soon. Could you show a side view of your bows both UP and DOWN? That is the root of my initial question. Meanwhile, tell me about the two straps on the front of your top. I have nothing of that sort on my car. Am I missing something?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 03:06 pm:

OOOPS! Sorry, didn't really mean to post that twice! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 03:53 pm:

That's the best picture of the top down. It does not show the position of the bow where the pin is located. Here are pictures of the top up and down but hard to see what you are looking for.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 05:46 pm:

It sounds like he has a 24-25 top iron instead of the original 22.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 06:13 pm:

Norm,

I’m glad you posted the extra two photos of your top. I was trying to figure out what was causing the front bow to stick out so far earlier, but I didn’t quite have enough information (or not smart enough) to be able to figure it out. I’m 90% sure that your have some mis-matched top bows. Jack was close on that, but the roadster went to a one man style top and top bows in 1923 – 1925 and your car clearly still has the straight windshield, wide arm rest of the 1917-22 black radiator cars. What I believe probably happened is you have a touring front top iron and bow rather than a roadster front top iron and bow. It may turn out some of the other bows are incorrect or that the top was borrowed from another car of era back then. But I believe using the touring front top bow and top iron would cause something similar to what you are experiencing. Notice that your center top bow is NOT vertical as it should be. I’ll post some diagrams in a little bit that show the difference in the roadster and the touring tops.

For Trey – I think those same photos will be of some help to you also.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 06:15 pm:

I just compared his bows to both a 20 and a 25 and his does not match either correctly. The rear bow seems short. I would guess that his bows are assembled from touring bows or a mix of touring and roadster


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 06:26 pm:

Look at the picture of Henry on the wall, he knows what is wrong. :-) Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 09:07 pm:

Norm,

Note below is a drawing of the 1915-1922 roadster and touring top bows/irons [Thank you Keith Townsend for posting those originally. The same illustrations are available in the book “The Model T FordOwner” by Murray Fahnestock – available from the vendors which was taken from Murray Fahnestock’s articles back in the day.] The first drawing shows the touring top the roadster top then touring top lined up. Unfortunately the original scan was just a little off and I have forgotten what program I have on the computer or at least used to have on the computer where I could rotate a picture or illustration 1 degree at a time. Additionally the roadster top illustration was larger than the touring top illustration and I “eyeballed it” to make the touring illustration the same size. I may or may not have actually succeeded in that. So a disclaimer – I know it is a little off – but it should clearly illustrate that if you take the front top iron and top bow from a touring top frame and attach it to a roadster top frame – it will fit but it will be longer than the original roadster top frame.



You can see the red lines that are straight but the drawings really need to be rotated just a little. But you can see that the front Touring iron/bow is longer than the roadster. For some reason the roadster bow also sticks past the windshield frame more than the touring top. That may just be an illustration issue?




Someone that is good with math should be able to say that since it is a right triangle and I know that the second longest side is 27 inches on the Roadster and 37 1/2 inches on the touring. If I could find a protractor to measure the angle where the front top bow connects to the second top bow I could have the computer calculate the approximate length of the top bow just by putting in the numbers and the angle at: http://www.csgnetwork.com/righttricalc.html If someone has a protractor and does that please let us know what t the roadster top bow/top iron is ____ length and the touring front top bow/top iron is ______ knowing it is approximate. Someone could just measure the distance for us also. And yes there would be some variation due to who made the top and bows etc.

And why is the front top bow on the touring longer than the front top bow on the roadster? Good question. And the illustrations again from Murray Fahnestock show us why.





The touring 2nd from the front windshield top iron/bow is 36 inches from the front of the cowl while the roadster 2nd from the front windshield top iron/bow is 29 5/8 inches or 6 3/8 inches closer to the front of the cowl.



Above is Keith's original posting for anyone that needs that without the red lines.

When you have a chance please make some measurements and let us know if it was only the front top iron & bow or if other things are also out of place on your roadster. Again, it is possible that someone used a top iron from a different car, but it is likely that only the front bow / iron was swapped out by mistake. Note if you have the oval top irons – the iron could be correct and the bow could be made extra long but with the rectangular top irons – from memory, the length is fixed by the top irons and the actual bow is a flat piece of wood attached to the metal bow with wood (or something else) to fill in the curved section of the top iron.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 09:46 pm:

An example of how the roadster top would normally appear when up [Thanks Jay for posting it previously]



Another Roaadster (Ford USA still called them runabouts) that Adrian posted the link to Shorpy which is: http://www.shorpy.com/node/4432?size=_original



And below zoomed in so you can see where the top bow would be placed when the top was lowered.



In addition to those photos there is a lot of good information on the forum. Please also see:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/229470.html

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/21299.html

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 10:25 pm:

Hap ... what year car are the above 2 photos from? My '24 doesn't have irons like that .. but then, I am not sure MINE are right, either. I think I'm missing some pieces for the window attachemt/latch, when it's up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 03:43 pm:

Dennis,

Just to closes the loop, as noted on your new thread -- http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/310716.html?1347208157 -- you have a one man top mounted on a 1924 roadster. The photos above of the roadsters are typical for the two man style tops used 1915-1922 (oval bows for the earlier cars and rectangular bows introduced around the beginning of the 1918 model year).

It sounds like you got your question about your one man top answered on the other thread -- which is great. Good luck with your top.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 04:19 pm:

Here are a few pics of the point in question. This shows the top just pulled back and down with the front bow disconnected and ready to be locked into it's second position. The question is, does the pin on the bow fit into the inside or the outside of the holder, or is something missing? (Like the brackets to hold the bows when collapsed, which have evidently been plugged.)

I hope these pics will clear up what I'm actually trying to find out. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 04:21 pm:

And here are two more pics, showing both options of positions. (Had some trouble getting all the pics in one post.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 04:35 pm:

You second pic is correct method, the iron fitted to the inside, that keeps it from popping out of the retention bracket.

Your T is missing the top prop arms and brackets coming out of those 'capped' holes on the body.



This is a '24 touring top, but you get the idea of the support given by the top prop rods and brackets, and the leather bow straps and pad mounted on the bracket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 04:50 pm:

Trey:

Your roadster has a slant windshield and a "one-man" top so it would not be a 1922. I can also see by the trunk lid that it is a later car.

Can you post photos of the entire car and provide the motor serial number. Looks like you have a 1923, 1924 or 1925 roadster.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trey Gwaltney on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 11:15 pm:

Well, I sure didn't expect all of this to come from one simple little question! But better to find out before I order the license plates. I'll admit, I haven't actually confirmed the year of the car with the serial number. I'm only going with what's on the title and what the previous owner of about 50+ years has told me. I'm not denying the body style of the car, so perhaps you can tell me what I've actually got.... Here's the number, and some pictures I took today. 8279830


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 12:08 am:

Late 23 according to the engine number


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 12:23 am:

Monday, August 27, 1923. That makes it a 1924. The 1924 model year began August 1.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 12:24 am:

Your car is a 1924.

Your motor serial number corresponds to August 1923. The 1924 "model year" was August 1923 through July 1924.

Therefore, your car (or at least the motor) was early in the production of the 1924 model year.

Note: there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding 1923 and 1924 models. 1923 models had low radiators, hoods and cowls. 1924 models had the higher radiator, hood and cowl. Your car has the higher radiator, hood and cowl.

You need to get saddle arms, saddles and leather straps to properly stow the top in the down position. I wouldn't let it dangle like that. If you remove the plugs, the saddle arms screw right into the body irons.

I believe the three window rear curtain for your car is incorrect. I'll let the experts chime in on that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 12:25 am:

Simultaneous posting....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 08:29 am:

Trey

Nice '24! Your T looks good in those photos.

As for the top, someone placed an earlier version covering, with the 3 narrow windows and no gypsy curtain wrapping around the sides.

The '24 features wrap around curtain and 2 windows.

Note the photo below, the T in the foreground is a '24, with correct top covering, the T just in front of it is a '22, straight windshield with the earlier style top.



Just a touch more info, the 1923 model year did introduce in September of 1922, the new body style with slanting stanchion and slanting/tilting windshield upper frame. The '23 had low radiator and low hood like the '22. The 1924 model year featured the new high radiator and hood.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 12:40 pm:

Norman,

Your rear top bow is incorrect and has been replaced with a front bow. That's why it's too short. I believe everything else is o.k.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 01:36 pm:

Your car might even be a '25 model manufactured in 1924. The left front fender is the 1925 style. Additionally, the late '22-24 runabouts had two rear windows, and they are spaced further apart than the photo Dan posted above. Your car has the late '24-25 tailight too indication again, that it is maybe a '25 model. Since your car has non demountable wheels, it could have been a non starter car at one time, who knows? Another thing that suggests it could e a '25 model is the rear view mirror. 1924's didn't have the windshield drilled for that mirror. Take a look, and there even might be a hole for the windshield wiper too!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Wicker on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 02:23 pm:

Nice Va. Model T


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