MASSIVE ADVICE NEEDED

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: MASSIVE ADVICE NEEDED
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 03:41 pm:

Got up this morning, took a trip. Car started great on battery, so I switched to mag. No problems.

I am on the road about 2 hours, and within 1000 yards of my destination, the car starts to sputter and spit and backfire on mag. I roll to a stop and the car dies. I switch back to battery and the car starts right up. I immediately switched to mag and it farts, spits, backfires and dies.

It did rain for about an hour or so the whole time on the trip, so once there, I waited until the car dried and took off the mag post. Nothing noticeable out of the ordinary, and no lint on the mag contact. I drove the car back home on battery although it runs like crap.

What would you assume to be the first course of action for me?

New Mag Post? Check wiring from switch to mag connection? Ideas???

This car has not ever not been able to run on mag. I have always had an operable magneto even on the tired 25 engine I took out to replace with the 23 engine.

Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 03:43 pm:

Take mag post off of hogshead, clean lint ( debris or crap ) from contacts & re-install.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 03:44 pm:

Check ignition switch in the "mag" position for continuity


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 03:46 pm:

That's as massive as I'm goin' to get.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 03:50 pm:

I need a check lite for this? lol

Already removed the mag post. no lint. or crap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 04:02 pm:

Try an E=Timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 04:06 pm:

Not that I'm against an E-timer, I've driven cars that had them, this post is NOT ABOUT AN E-TIMER!

Anybody else?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 04:09 pm:

Switch would be my guess. Hope its not a ground in the field coil. It's happened to me twice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 04:17 pm:

If it runs bad on battery and not at all on the mag, could be more common items. Check and clean the timer. Make sure your timer wires are OK, not shorting anywhere. Try a different set of coils. Check all the wire termination for tightness. If you think it is the switch, disconnect the wires from the coil box and the mag and jumper directly from the mag the coil box. This will point to the switch if the car runs OK. Otherwise I bet it is the timer and or wiring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 04:21 pm:

Mike, explain that a little more slowly LOL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 04:28 pm:

Will:

I'll stop over tomorrow after work with a meter & check wiring. Who the heck did such a crappy job on your coils ?????? LOL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 04:35 pm:

William, remember that if you are jumping mag to coil box this is a test. All it takes is a second with you accidentally connecting it to battery and mag simultaneously and you will demagnetize the all magnets!

It sounds like you need to rule out fuel starvation. Check the screen in the fuel bulb, any filter you may have added also. Check for gunk/dirt in the jets and float chamber. Check float level. Blow air through the fuel lines. Look in the tank to see if there is oxidation or other crap.

A lot of fuel problems are electrical in nature, conversely a lot of electrical problems are cured by fixing the fuel delivery system!

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 04:38 pm:

After running in rain, dies on MAG and runs like crap on BAT. Wet box?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 04:42 pm:

Yes you have to be careful, but remove and tape up the wire at the mag post. Remove the wire at the bottom of the coil box and tape it up. Then jumper the coil box terminal to the mag post. Try to start the engine. If it runs the problem is in the switch and or wiring. They are correct in saying you need to be careful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 05:01 pm:

If the coilbox got wet and it has wood panels, you probably have one or more carbon tracks in the wood. Swap out the box with a known-good one and try running it.

Double check under the mag post with a good light and an inspection mirror. Bits of broken cotter pins or safety wire are very good at hiding near the contact button where they are very hard to see.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 05:10 pm:

While it's running on battery, check the AC voltage from the magneto using the lightbulb test posted a bazillion times on this Forum and don't use a digital meter. If you have steady AC there then it's a game of follow the crumbs until you find a connection where it's intermittent. There are only a couple of points to check so it only takes a minute. If it's running good on battery then that SHOULD indicate everything is fine with the coilbox itself ... what you find in real life could be another thing altogether. If your problem seems to be with the terminal on the hogshead, check to see if the internal spring which embeds in the solder connection on the magneto ring is long enough to be making good connection at the top and bottom. Check the solder blob itself to see that it actually has been making contact there. If you find the problem is in the switch then package it up and send it to Ben Martin whose address can be found with a simple search also. If your a techie kind of guy then you should be able to repair the switch yourself, or atleast learn once what you should have done (and then send it to Ben!)

Regards,
Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 05:23 pm:

Will,

1- Take a look at your timer and roller and see if it is skipping or bouncing, it WILL be obvious if it is.

2- Have wood walls in your coil box? The grain may have a green haze that likes to become a conductor when wet. Will run fine when dry, like crap when moist or humid. My '15 did that for years and then I decided to change it to a FP liner kit. When I pulled the old box from the dash, the green tracing was obvious.

3- Just on a hunch, if it gets balking, open the carb 1/2 turn and see if it runs better. Don't run it that way too long as your plugs may get sooty real quick, but it could be indicative of a manifold leak when extra hot by running a tad lean.

4- Yeah check your fuel level. My Hack gets real cranky at about an inch or so. :-(

5- Check the screen in your sediment bulb potato. My '25 Fordor had a case where years of gunk caused a brown brillo pad on the screen that worked fine until after just so much fuel ran thru it and then it would compress and choke flow or eventually shut off. Let it settle a bit and fuel would flow again....for a while.

6- Tell Bob Jablonski it's his coils and sit back and let him figure it out! (Only kidding :-) )Tell him he only qualifies as success if your car now starts on MAG. Be prepared, he'll move in until it does. He doesn't eat much.

7- It can always be the switch, but I'd leave that 'til last other than obvious lose wires.

8- Only one variable at a time!! Have discipline at that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 06:17 pm:

Bob will be stopping by tomorrow. I changed the timer because the flapper was worn completely thru.

It made no difference in performance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 09:18 pm:

Garnet has the best first test. All the other components could or could not be at fault, but the place to begin is the magneto. Once you determining that the magneto is working, then you can go from there to the switch, coils, coil box, and timer. It is an easy test if you have an analog AC volt meter and a light bulb. If you have 6 or more volts at idle and increasing voltage as you speed up the engine until it eventually burns out the light bulb. Most important is to have over 6 volts and going upward toward 30 volts at high speed. If the magneto is bad, that's the place to begin to fix it. If the magneto is good, check the coils and timer and the switch. Lastly the coil box.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 09:58 pm:

These are fun! LOL .... It's interesting to see where folks start, on troubleshooting ... and all the different possibilities that COULD cause such an issue. I vote for Steve's idea on the coil box, now that I've been down that road once ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 10:03 pm:

If it runs on battery that would rule out timer.
If it runs on battery that would rule out coils.

Which coil box are you using, before or after 1919 style? If you are using the type with the switch on the front the wire from the mag to the switch could be grounding out. If you have the later style, is switch making intermittent contact on mag or a short in the wire from the mag to switch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 11:50 pm:

"This car has never been able to run on Mag."

What are you saying here? You need to get a voltmeter and check the mag output and go from there.

If its good, you have a wiring problem, or a high voltage short, likely in the coil box. If its some, then maybe you need an in car recharge. It its zilch then see if you mag post has continuity to ground(It should). If not then you have an open circuit, likely your mag terminal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Saturday, September 08, 2012 - 11:51 pm:

Remove the wire from the mag terminal to do these checks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 12:04 am:

It was running on MAG when it quit.
"Got up this morning, took a trip. Car started great on battery, so I switched to mag. No problems.

I am on the road about 2 hours, and within 1000 yards of my destination, the car starts to sputter and spit and backfire on mag. I roll to a stop and the car dies. I switch back to battery and the car starts right up. I immediately switched to mag and it farts, spits, backfires and dies. "


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P. Steele, Montana on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 12:37 am:

I betting on Steve and RV.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 12:43 am:

Read and do what Garnet said.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 09:27 am:

I am with Steve Jelf.
Wet coilbox now with carbon tracks in the box wood or the coils.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 11:02 am:

There is one clue you guys are ignoring and that is that he also said "drove the car back home on battery although it runs like crap" So it isn't running very good on battery either. Since it came on very suddenly and was not curable I am thinking it might be the coil points on one coil. My car had this exact same symptom on a tour once and it turned out that the "spin weld" that attaches the lower contact point to the vibrator spring was not done properly and the point was laying in the bottom of the coil box. The car would sorta run because the vibrator spring itself was making contact with the upper point but it ran like crap until I swapped that coil out. It was a fairly new set of points and Ron Patterson and I both have seen this happen usually within the first 600 miles or so on a new set of points. This wasn't uncommon on older batches of points but seems to have gone away with the newer batches. Just inspect the coil contacts. BTW - what year is this T? Coil box on motor or in with the people?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 12:55 pm:

Ok, me bad! But I am now confused. If you were driving for 2 hours on mag and then the magneto cuts out, but then state this car never had a working magneto?
How was the car running before it cut out?
Does sound like wet coil box or any of the other suggested possible problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ex trooper on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 01:04 pm:

Re-read the post!

This car has not ever not been able to run on mag. I have always had an operable magneto even on the tired 25 engine I took out to replace with the 23 engine troop


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 01:51 pm:

Here is a photo of the coil point spin weld failure John Regan is referring to.
1
It usually occurs on the vibrator point, but I have also seen this happen to the bridge cushion spring.
When this happens you will usually find the contact in the bottom of the coibox.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 02:27 pm:

Mark, the car has always had a working magneto. Maybe I didn't articulate that clearly in the post.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 02:37 pm:

Thank you for clearing that up. I sent you a PM.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 03:53 pm:

John & Ron:

Have had that problem before, where both vibrator and cushion spring contacts broke loose from mounting. Prepared to check everything. Should be at Will's home by 6 PM.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 07:24 pm:

"Not ever not had a working magneto". Double negative cancels itself so it means It has always had a working magneto! :-)

I hope you find it. I think someone here has posted the cure for the problem. I still would start with the magneto when making tests. If the magneto proves good, then work toward the switch, the coil box, the coils the timer.

I don't know what you mean by runs "crappy" on battery. Is it misfiring, or just does not have as much power as it did on mag? They normally have more power on magneto. If it is misfiring, then find out on which cylinders, and work toward finding the cause. Usually, however, if it runs on battery, and you have a working magneto, it will also run on magneto.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 07:33 pm:

OK Here are the findings:

Car starts on battery, switch to mag car immediately dies.

1. Coils inspected. All ok
2. Changed spark plugs just for the hell of it.
3. Tested Mag output. 8 at low idle and 25 at fast idle. Seems OK
4. Mag post clear of any debris.

Start car on battery, switch to mag car immediately dies.

It was getting dark so we didn't take the coil box off, but the car ran OK on battery during our tests. We checked all the wiring. Nothing appears out of the ordinary.

We tried the test of jumping from mag to coil box, but since the car won't start on mag, we were not successful with that test.

So are we saying it's the switch?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 07:49 pm:

William, I had the same thing happen this summer. I was driving along on mag and suddenly the engine shut off. My slow reaction time allowed enough time for unburned fuel to get into my exhaust system causing the muffler to explode when I switched to "Bat". I later found a loose wire on the back of the ignition switch. Tightened it up and the car ran fine on mag again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 07:56 pm:

Yes. The switch or the wires between magneto and switch or from switch to coil box.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 08:58 pm:

OK where to get a better quality switch?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 10:08 pm:

I believe mine did this on me today. Quite a "long" drive for us ... 10+ miles to town. I turned into a parking lot to turn back and go with traffic, and 'dumped' it, approaching the street, in the driveway. Then it wouldn't start. Not a click or a buzz .. No buzz when on magneto, either. I assumed a loose wire, and started at the engine compartment, as it effected the magneto, also. It was a loose nut on the wire feeding the coil box. Switch contacts appeared to be tight.

Once back in the saddle, it took right off on electric start. I REALLY need to see what's up with my ammeter, if IT's bad, or my generator isn't putting out. It always is bouncing at zero.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 10:11 pm:

Sorry, William ... I forgot to ask .. apparently, all your connections are good and tight? .. especially switch to coil box. As it 'runs crappy' on battery, I'd still suspect the coil box & contacts, especially if you haven't migrated to the plastic 'wood' portion of the kit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Sunday, September 09, 2012 - 10:56 pm:

I once worked on a problem where my coils wouldn't buzz. Had the switch on BAT and while I had my head and hands in the engine compartment for a few minutes checking things, I heard a coil suddenly buzz and the next thing I heard was the engine running. Please keep your hands away from moving parts when troubleshooting under the hood. Your fingers and your face are important to your families!

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 11:33 am:

you can carefully open the switch and check all the internal parts. The contacts should be clean and springy enough to make good contact. If you need replacement parts, check the various vendors. Check with Chaffins, Langs, Snyders etc. They carry parts to fit the different switches. Be sure to order one exactly like yours. There are variations even on the same year car. Be sure that you do not allow the battery to be connected to the magneto either through the switch or directly. If you still want to drive the car while the switch is out, you can connect a toggle from the battery to the coil box. But in that case, leave the magneto disconnected until you get a proper switch.


Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 12:01 pm:

Some people don't like the switch repair kits, but I thought the one I got from Lang's five years ago was excellent. The only problem was that because Ford used a variety of suppliers, the notches in the kit didn't quite match up with the tabs on the housing. That was easily fixed simply by widening one of the notches with a little grinder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Monday, September 10, 2012 - 10:09 pm:

If you can start it on Magneto, and you are a backyard mechanic, you can bypass the switch by running a wire from the mag post to the coil box. I'd start the car and get it warmed up, then disconnect the original wires and run the jumper. Then try to start it on Magneto. You'd need to stall it, cover the carburetor, or remove the jumper wire to stop it, however. I'd be worried that if the original wires weren't disconnected, a bad switch could send 6 volts down to the magneto. I'm betting on the switch also, as I had a switch go bad on my 26 and it demagnetized the magneto.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 12:01 am:

I agree with Steve and Jeff because it happened to me on my 13 hack. If you get into the box (and it has not been rebuilt) you may find that the small solid wires on the bottom of the box have been shorted with the moisture from rain. Also the fact that these are solid wire, they could have aged and broke with vibration, (this also caused me a problem with the exact some symptoms).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 12:13 am:

I had a switch go bad on my 14 Runabout. Fixed it to no avail, but when I added air to the tires it started and has run fine since.


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