1910 Model E.???

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: 1910 Model E.???
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 02:09 am:

I have just received an information pack from the Henry Ford re my engine # 33485 Shipping date 15 December 1910

They were confused and couldn't offer any reason why the original manufacturing documents refered to the vehicle as a model "E" I have several questions relating to the information as other references refers to is a "engine only" suspected as export to Canada RHD. Ford records show it as LHD. Could the "E" be a misunderstanding of "T" as they sound similar? Or is it just too difficult 100 years later!

Cheers Alan Long. Western Australia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 03:42 am:

E for export? (to Australia, via New York or Canada, don't know if Canada had taken over all the Australian exports in 1910?)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 06:28 am:

Alan,

It would be good to know a few other items that are listed on the shipping document. If it was installed in a car it would also have contained the body type (runabout, touring, etc); the body maker in most cases by 1910; color; type of carburetor, type of coil, type of lamps, etc.

If it does not have any of that type of information, then it probably was not a car. Engine number 34,500 was manufactured Dec 13, 1910 [Bruce (RIP) pg 491] and was an engine only shipped to Canada. And on that document it did list that the carb was a Kingston. So if your document has the engine number and type of carb -- and no mention of the type of body, color, windshield, lights, etc. then it likely was just an engine. If it was a chassis -- I believe it would also list the lights and type of coils.
Note both RHD and LHD engine assemblies were export to Canada until they gradually took over building the engine up in Canada using the USA blocks with the "Made in USA" ground off -- starting in May 1913. [Bruce - pg 539].

So the next question would be -- what type of car or chassis is the engine installed? And are there any signs that it may have been a Canadian car or chassis at one time? Note the Ford of England Branch Plant had not opened yet. I do not know if the ordered any complete engine assemblies or if they only ordered cars and parts for the English sales.

G’day Alan,

I just now looked at your profile and you and your car are both in Australia. It was not uncommon for Ford of Canada to take a LHD engine assembly and convert it to RHD and then assemble it in a car bound for Australia or one of the other British Commonwealth locations. They also received RHD engine assemblies from the USA – but there are some records of the LHD to RHD swap occurring after it left Detroit and before it was shipped out by Ford of Canada. We would love to have more information about your car’s body – differences between it and the USA body etc. Photos would be more than welcomed.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 07:01 am:

The Accounts Receivables documents at the Benson Ford archives show Model T models as "T" for Touring, "TR" for Torpedo Runabout, "TC" for Town Car, etc. The ledger entries are in the form of Model + serial number.

So for example a ledger entry for a torpedo runabout shipped to FH Rhodes of Esterville, IA on October 22, 1911 is listed as TR91487.

Interestingly the notation MOT ??? on November 13 - HMMMMMM.

I did not spend any time looking at the Accounts Receivables ledgers for Canada, but it sure would make sense for an engine to be listed as E + Serial number.

Image is property of the Benson Ford / Henry Ford Museum used here under my license.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Wednesday, September 12, 2012 - 05:44 am:

G'Day Hap

Yes, the information received reads a Pontiac wooden bodied (#5168) with 3 slot floorboards, LHD, blue roadster, grey stripes, Kingston carby & coils, "C" cylinder head, Firestone tyres, E&J Lights & Generator, "J" Top, "R" windscreen, Stewart speedo, both side & tail lamps, horn & tool kit! It was shipped to Des Monies Iowa ordered by Harring M.C . Co on December 15th 1910. Auto Order # 18063. I do not have the complete original car but only what the previous owner was trying to build usuing that engine and mechanicals correct for 1910. How the engine managed to get to Western Australia is another question. I have asked the engine rebuilder to look very hard again at the number in case i got it wrong.If so, i will start all over again! I was hopefull of the information showing a Touring car shipped from Canada for international export.I am building a Canadian style body for it with all known differences from the USA versions. Cheers Alan Long Western Australia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, September 12, 2012 - 08:23 am:

Royce:

On other documents I have often seen the MOT designation simply meaning "motor number".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, September 12, 2012 - 08:42 am:

G’day Alan,

With the additional information you shared, it appears the engine originally went in the USA blue runabout (also called roadsters by many folks and when they are not running properly many other colorful names). If it had been sent to NY NY which was a known export location it might be possible that it was for export. But because it was sent to Des Monies, Iowa that would lead me to believe it was a normal USA car purchased by a USA owner. I'm sure there is a good story on how the engine arrived in Australia. Perhaps the original owner moved there within a year or so of purchasing the car? Shipping a relatively new Ford to Australia if you were moving there and liked the car could make sense. I do not think they would have shipped the car when it was 5 or more years old – as the shipping cost was high and they could have purchased a similar 5 year old Ford after they arrived. And perhaps a collector had the engine and/or remains of the car shipped much later. Or if someone had and inexpensive way of moving the car – worked for a shipping company then it could have arrived that way also.

Since the Canadian cars used the USA engines until some time around May 1913 (there would have been a period when both Canadian assembled engines and USA engines were both used. Another item we are trying to track down – how long was the overlap? ] If you are going for a Stynoski award, I would recommend you contact the Chief Judge and confirm if they have any issues with the car being built either way as long as it is all Canadian or all USA style assembly for that year. I know with the later cars – an individual purchased an early 1926 roadster body and then purchased all the other early 1926 items and assembled a very authentic period correct non-starter, non-demountable wheel 1926 roadster that won the Stynoski award. In your case because the records survive you know that the engine actually came in the blue USA runabout. And you may want to consider building it up as the shipping document said that car was originally built. It would probably be more work for you as USA parts are probably not as easy to find in Australia. You could also check into having the serial number on the engine changed to a known Canadian "engine only" that was shipped to Walkerville. But remember we are hoping to eventually locate the Canadian customs records that hopefully would show what engine number and body type were export to where. And the car could have just as easily been a different body style etc. As you proceed forward – remember it is your car. Enjoy it, and I would suggest make it as accurate as practical for the Dec 1910 shipping date as practical – which would probably mean a 1911 model year car. Although for Canadian production I do not know when they switched to the 1911 model year (and of course there often was some overlap).

Good luck with car and have fun (that is more important than having “stress” over trying to make every minor detail perfect – for example I would recommend aluminum pistons).

Good morning Royce – thank you for all your research and support! I do not know what the MOT stands for but John's comment sounds very logical.

Thanks to all of you for your help in preserving the cars, supporting the hobby and helping us gather a few more data points.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, September 12, 2012 - 02:14 pm:

Possibly the left column is dash tag and the right column motor number? That makes sense.

In some of the records they have two columns like that, the practice disappearing about the beginning of December 1911. After that all the pages have only a single set of numbers per car, which appear to correspond to motor numbers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Wednesday, September 12, 2012 - 05:05 pm:

Regarding export of cars to Europe and UK in particular:
I am pretty certain that cars where send knocked down to Europe. Before 1919 where Ford Motor Company A/S was formed in Copenhagen, it was a major car dealer in Copenhagen that had the agency for Ford cars. They did have pretty large workshop facilities but not so they could assemble cars from parts. They could mount the wheels and the top and whatever we have seen pictures of is disassembled when they knock the car down for export.
If I recall the book about the UK Model T it was about the same setup in UK before 1911 and also in Germany before 1925.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 11:55 pm:

Hap,

That is exactly what i intend to do....Build it and enjoy it for as long as possible. I tend to be a bit crazy with my T's and want them the best that i can at the time with what parts are available. I have to live with a few incorrect items on my car such as the front spindles, engine sump and transmission cover being incorrect for 1910 but if you wait for them to come along you would never get to drive it.

Its frustrates me when Bruce's black book clearly shows my engine was one of 100 shipped November 21 as engine only, assume from Piquette to Canada but the Ford records read as per previous posts as a complete car. Experts disagree!

Cheers Alan in Western Australia


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