Engine number

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Engine number
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Rivard on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 07:09 am:

I know this will probably start a debate but here goes. I have a 1915 Roadster with a 10/23/14 casting date on the engine. The engine serial number is 623455. The car body number is 315355032. (March/15) . Now I have a copy of "Henry's Wonderful Model T" by Floyd Clymer. I know this is an old publication but it was my fathers bible back in the 60's when he restored and showed T's. In the engine number section of that book it shows that serial number falling sometime during Feb. 1915. On the MTFCA site there is a serial number page that show that number being used during Nov. 1914. Can it be possible that in my youth the data being used to authenticate model T's was all wrong? It so there should be a large amount of old restoration T's out there with the wrong numbered engines in them. Which one is correct? Just getting re-introduced to the hobby and want to get the correct info.
Thanks Don


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 07:51 am:

A list I have, published 1929, lists the # as Feb 15.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 09:02 am:

Bruce McCalley's Model T Encyclopedia on disk gives a more detailed look at serial numbers than what you find in the condensed online version. It shows your engine as being assembled the afternoon of Tuesday, November 10, 1914. The model year for 1915 open cars began in January. If your November 1914 engine was placed in a March 1915 body, either it sat in the factory four months before being used in a car, or is a replacement installed sometime in the past ninety-seven years.

As for reliability of sources, I'll go with Bruce. His research is the most extensive, thorough, and recent.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 09:08 am:

Don,

Not an answer to your question but another thought about the timeline.

Whenever you have the engine out of the car and apart, check the transmission stub shaft. It should have a date put there when it was assembled. The numbers are about the size of engine numbers.



Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 09:57 am:

I've a hunch...

As pointed out, the open '15 model year body availability did not take effect until January of '15.

There is other documentation that throughout the fall of 1914 branches were asked to keep updating home office on 1914 model year left over inventory still remaining.

So, it 'might' be an early engine swap, or 'might' be an earlier body swap, but at the same time I also think it may just be concievable that some branches had lots of inventory hanging around that they needed to use up based on the notice traffic mentioned.

I've shared before that I was lucky enough to go through what was the original Louisville branch facility in the early 70's when it was undergoing a re-develop/reuse for other manufacturing and the engine storage area was actually huge horse stalls that lined up to where railcar doors would be for lack of a better word.

Concievable in size that each bay was a first in last out and an entire railcar plus of engines just as to footprint let alone stacking. I forget the number of bays now but much more than a few and can envision an engine getting blocked from coming out with newer engines in front of and on top of old. Were other branches designed this way? FWIW. If Highland built I'd probably look at the 'arguement for' in a different light as Highland was built for get-er-in/get-er-out and a 5 month delay just would sound too long.

This said, I would not hesitate to leave it be, and do up the Roadster as an early/early actual '15.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 03:56 pm:

The norm is that the engine number seems to not be in an "older" body. Same month as engine number up to engine number plus several months, 90 days or so. Not the other way around.

To do that, Ford would have to place orders with Pontiac or whoever for delivery in the future, probably "marked" in the future. For instance, Ford could be ordering bodies for December (P.O. 12-14), January (P.O. 1-15), February (P.O. 2-15) and March (P.O. 3-15) in the month of September as an example. Ford would then be able to keep the bodies "with or in front" of production and not have December bodies with February engines in them.

Switchovers like the '13/'14 Tourings and the '14/'15 model change could put you into Don's situation of a November engine in a "March" body. Stockpiling built engines could put '14 engines in '16 cars as an extreme so I wouldn't think there was much of that going on.

Fun to speculate about the many how comes?

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 05:17 pm:

Unless you have proof that engine has been in that car with the same body since it was manufactured, the engine number is not enough to verify the date the car was manufactured. You need to read the descriptions of all the parts given in various publications to assess whether all the parts are from the same year and then check the engine number to see if it is indeed from the same period. Even then, the engine number could have been changed at some time in the past. These cars are older than most living people and have been restored and rebuilt so many times since manufacture, that it is almost impossible to date precisely.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Rivard on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 07:06 pm:

Thanks for the input everyone. Kerry has the same info I have showing it as stamped for car installation in Feb 15. His info is from a very old publication. Also, George from Cherry Hill has a very good set of circumstances that would allow the block to set around for several months. None the less, it's a lot of fun to speculate but the bottom line is I am going to restore the car as a 15 and enjoy it regardless of what engine it has. It is still interesting and unexplained how the old data on engine serial numbers differs so much from what Bruce McCalley has in his book! ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 08:09 pm:

Well david, I think you are onto something with the months to engine numbers.
The list that puts your # at Feb 15 is from Motor Numbers of all Ford Cars, Ford Dealer and service Field, august 1929.
Now, comparing this list to the encyclopedia list, the problem starts with the B engines Oct 1912, 12,247 made, then the engine #'s start again Dec 1912 with a gap of around 26,000.
From then on numbers to months are out by a couple of months, they don't start to co-inside again until early 1918.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 08:10 pm:

Sorry, Donald, not David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 08:28 pm:

This could even explain why some research has shown up for machining of green cast blocks within a few days of being made.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Tuesday, September 11, 2012 - 08:38 pm:

In the later days, the blocks were only allowed to cool off enough (after casting) to enable handling before they were machined. i.e.., same day


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