Cracked block

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Cracked block
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Thompson on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 12:15 pm:

Just discovered a cracked block in the 26 engine I was planning to build. The crack is between the water jacket and the valve chamber, under the valve cover. Do you think JB Weld would take the anti freeze, oil, & heat? I can't tell if the crack goes through or not. Tried to send picture but it says too large.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 12:48 pm:

If it were mine I would have it welded. JB weld would hold for some unknown time but might fail again and ruin your day. We use very expensive new rod here that hardly requires any preheat or slow cooling. The last pack I bought was $ 45.00 a pound but it is stick rod and like I said before just clean , warm to around 140 and weld. If you want you can pour cat litter over it to cool slowly but we usually dont even do that anymore. I can get you the name if you like next week.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 01:32 pm:

Metal stitch it. No welding required. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 02:24 pm:

We all know that welding cast iron is a joke. You can have the best rod ever made and the best welder know to man and the problem is the expansion and cooling of cast iron. No one can change that. Stop fooling your self and others that there is a magical way to fix cast iron. It is a problem as best. Preheating to 400 helps. Peening helps. But it is the fact that it is cast iron that is the problem. Brazing is WAY better than welding. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 02:29 pm:

In cases like this, I also would vee it out and braze. The strength is adequate and the ability to seal it from leaking is what you're really looking for.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Shirley on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 03:05 pm:

Brass has always been my choice too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Shirley on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 03:07 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Shirley on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 03:16 pm:

I was taught to grind out to a V and that the brass had to flow and stick, and too much heat is not good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 03:16 pm:

Isn't it advisable to drill a hole at each end of the crack so the crack cannot spread any further? I believe that is what they did to the liberty bell to stop the crack from growing before they retired it and put it on display. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Shirley on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 03:20 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 04:17 pm:

Bill,

My '21 block has been cracked like yours for as long as I've owned it. Every 6 or 8 years it seeps a little then seals up again. I don't plan to ever do anything about it. Does yours actually leak? If not, forget it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 07:43 pm:

Don't knock the rods Jerry is talking about, silicon bronze wire is also available now for mig. Also 56% silver, all work well on cast iron and are worth trying. New tech. is hard to keep up with these days.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 08:39 pm:

Bill, I have tried to weld that area with different rods, to tig the 26-7 blocks are common cracks there, all of them I have tried to weld or taken them to have welded ended up with cracks going else where. I have even had one in a hot fire welded it and put it back in next morning more cracks! Just my thought find a better block to start with. Also look for cracks from exhaust valve into cylinder that is another common crack for the 26-7 blocks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 02:55 am:

Robert Scott Owens, brazing is not the best way to repair cast iron, at least not always. Cast iron has been welded very reliably for probably 100 years or more. There are several methods that are used. If a casting is exposed to a lot of heat, such as an exhaust manifold, the bronze can soften and fail. Many companies have been successful for many years repairing cast iron. I have repaired many castings myself by arc welding them, and I am by no means an expert, although I have made my living as a weldor for the last forty plus years. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 08:06 am:

Here's some photos of a cast iron weld job using cast iron rod and an oxy/acet torch. It's off of my 1-cyl 1907 REO. The same principles apply to a Model T. It will come in a few posts because of the number of photos.

First view of crack...



A little prying with a screwdriver and the side fell off...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 08:08 am:

Crack has been ground out. This is about a 1/4" gap which will be filled with cast iron rod. Piece is held in place with a quick tack from a tig welder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 08:09 am:

A few photos of the "oven" built from fire brick on a metal table. The "lid" is just a piece of scrap sheet metal. The burner is a "weed burner" like my father-in-law used to get rid of weeds on the farm. It preheats in this oven for about 3 or 4 hours.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 08:15 am:

Welding using cast iron rod and oxy/acet torch. The rod is obtainable from a welding supply store or you can use original cast iron Model T piston rings. It takes a special flux, also obtainable at the welding supply. Keep the weed burner on during this process.



Once it is complete, put the lid back on and let it cook for another 3 hours or so. Then, cut the fire and quickly put it in a 30 gal. trash can partially filled with vermiculite (same stuff used in the garden). Pour vermiculite over and around it...fill up the can. Let it set in there for 24 hours. When you take it out, it will still be pretty warm. You may have to wear gloves because it is still warm.



Here's what is looks like after you are done and before grinding. Once it is ground, you can't tell anything ever happened!

I've done this on smaller things too. One of my repairs was a hole in Model T exhaust manifold. Someone had drilled and hole about 1/2" diameter in the side of the manifold. I preheated the area with a torch, welded it, post-heated the weld/area, drew the fire off slowly, ground it down, sandblasted it, painted it with Eastwood Exhaust Manifold paint, and put it on the car. I didn't even have to straighten it. That was a couple of years ago. It's still going.

Try it! You'll wonder why anyone would want to braze or run nickel rod.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Husted on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 09:28 am:

What is the name of the rod and flux? The local welding supply house has not heard of it the rod or flux.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Scherzer on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 10:11 am:

I did this crack repair using an all nickel welding rod with a DC welder set on reversed current. No preheat just short welds and light peening until cool and then weld again until completed. No leaks after completion.

welding cracked block

welding cracked block

Sorry I forgot take a picture after the welding was complete.

Here's motor after the final assembly. Bob

welding cracked block

welding cracked block


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 02:10 pm:

For Mike Husted >>> http://www.tinmantech.com/html/cast_iron_welding_supplies.php

Sometimes this is only method that will work. Especially on burned out manifolds.
Sometimes when there are thinned, or broken, areas we gas weld a steel patch over the offending area.
If you are good at brazing you can do iron but don't get chintzy with the flux.
It's pretty much the same technique as brazing but at a much higher temperature.
I wouldn't practice on a hollow piece such as a manifold. When the parent iron gets plastic if it has any place to go it WILL........and you'll have a bigger mess to fix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 09:37 pm:

Mike,
Here's a link to a site that shows how to weld cast iron with an oxy/acet torch. He is tells what flux to use. It looks like a pretty good demo. I could not find the red cast iron flux I had used on a quick search of the Internet and I can't find my current flux. It is not brass brazing flux. What he uses is a Peterson High Heat. The cast iron rod I got from a welding supply in El Dorado, KS years ago (there is a refinery nearby...probably why they had it). Old cast iron piston rings will work fine for rod. A small piece, like the guy is demonstrating the process on, is a lot easier (quicker) to weld than a large cylinder because of the pre/post heat.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=cast+iron+flux+red+&view=detail&id=6F79D1806 EE5A93A4AF49D9E5521B21BFC17F734

Verne


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 09:58 pm:

Harris Welco, WELCO FLUX #800. Bought a new can last year. KB


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