Roadster id help please

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Roadster id help please
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth LeBlanc on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 02:24 pm:

can anyone tell me the difference between 22 and earlier roadster bodies and 23 to 25 i am going to order a wood kit and need to know the year i only have a shell no dash or sills it looks like the back panel may be the clue but i am not sure thanks in advance


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 03:19 pm:

The 22 and earlier has a straight windshield with the low radiator. The 23 and later has a slant windshield with a high radiator. There was a transition period between the earlier and later body style. So your car could be registered either as a 22 or a 23. The change was made approximately October. The assembly plants could use up the existing parts before making the new ones, so you could have either kind. See pictures in the picture gallery of the forum.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 08:11 pm:

Yes in the first part of 1923 you could have a low steel firewall/radiator, one man top and a slanted windshield.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 08:38 pm:

Kennith,

Measure twice and order once. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/132254.html for Phil Mino’s excellent photos showing 1915-1923 low cowl vs 1924-1925 high cowl also dash differences.

Also see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/254348.html

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/258910.html

Recommend you order Leon Parker’s wood plans even if you do order a wood kit. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/158837.html

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, September 13, 2012 - 09:53 pm:

There always seems to be some confusion regarding 1922, 1923 and 1924 model years.

As far as I'm concerned, there was no "transition" and the calendar year should not be confused with the model year.

The 1923 model year retained the lower radiator and hood but had a slant windshield, one-man top, and a completely re-styled trunk with a curved slope that started higher up on the rear of the body.

The 1924 and 1925 models year had the higher radiator and hood.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Friday, September 14, 2012 - 09:07 am:

When did they add the steering column support?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Friday, September 14, 2012 - 12:11 pm:

I read someplace that Ford always referred to the high radiator Fords made in '23 as '24's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, September 14, 2012 - 02:34 pm:

Aaron:

Bruce McCalley notes in the online encyclopedia that Ford referred to the high radiator Fords as 1924 models.

However, in my opinion, he creates some confusion in his entries by using terms such as "the later 1923" which are meant to refer to the calendar year and not the model year.

There are many 1924 Ford tourings and roadsters that are misidentified as 1923 by their owners.

It's actually pretty cut and dry. The model year should not be confused with the calendar year but with 1922, 23 and 24 roadsters and tourings, there seems to be a lot of unnecessary confusion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, September 14, 2012 - 03:10 pm:

The 1923 model year ends July 31, 1923. My 1923 Fords (April and June serial numbers) both have the low radiator. The 1924 model year begins August 1, 1923. My 1924 Ford (August 1923 serial number) has the high radiator. The Model T Encyclopedia lists the identifying features for each year and tells when the model year began and ended. But would they start installing the new radiators before using up all the old ones? Yes. Any low radiators left over would go into replacement stock. You might interchange the two kinds of radiators by changing enough other parts but that would be highly impractical and unlikely.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Friday, September 14, 2012 - 04:09 pm:

"There are many 1924 Ford tourings and roadsters that are misidentified as 1923 by their owners. "

Mine is one of them. When I bought it, I believed it was a "late '23" as it has a May 1923 serial number and a high-hood. I learned though that it's actually a '25 body (equal length hinges, and no wood in the cowl area) and that the car has either had an engine swap or was pieced together from parts when it was restored in the late '60s.

The title says 1923, and I licensed it with 1923 plates before learning the differences... I'm not even sure what year to even call it when someone asks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 11:04 am:

The parallel hinges can be found on late '24s too. A lot of people forget the '25 model year began in October of '24.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 12:17 pm:

If you have a Model T built in the calender year of 1923 then it's a 1923. If it was made after the changes then it's still a 1923 built in the 1924 "STYLE".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 12:47 pm:

I disagree.

Model year and calendar year are two different things.

The 1924 model year was August 1923 through July 1924.

For example, as Steve Jelf said earlier, his motor number corresponds to August 1923. However, his car is a 1924 Model T Ford.

Again, for some reason there is unnecessary confusion regarding 1923 and 1924 Model Ts. People don't seem to have this confusion problem with other model years. For example, the 1917 model year was August 1916 through July 1917. There are many 1917 Model Ts that were assembled in 1916 but people have no problem calling them 1917 Fords.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 01:05 pm:

Erik is correct--even the State of California DMV recognizes that year model and year first sold are different, and there is a place on the pink slip showing that (or at least there used to be!).
This "controversy" goes much farther back than the '23-'24 time--my brass touring was made in December of 1915, so it qualifies as an HCCA vehicle--BUT!! it is a 1916 year model, and I ain't about to gussy it up to be a '15! Now I can't prove it was sold new in 1915 though. . .
Really, for history's sake, we should stop calling cars "late '23" etc. They are 1924 models built in 1923.
OTOH, in the model A era, there were mid-year production changes, such as the '30 radiator shell, which was replaced by the '31 style radiator shell at first on only the Deluxe models. There's also the early 30 fenders called "eyebrow" fenders (actually only used in late '29 produced '30 style cars) and then the early '30 fenders with two-piece splash aprons that also had the running board made as part of the apron, which were changed out to one piece splash aprons with separate running boards. Maybe the influence of the documentation of the A history started this "late-early" thing with the Ts.
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 01:25 pm:

You are correct Model year and calender year are two different things. If the car was built in 1923 and sold in 1923 it would be titled as a 1923 not 1924. And yes, a Ford made and sold in late 1916 would be a 1917 style Ford built in 1916 but would still have a 1916 title, pink slip, registration.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 02:42 pm:

Your argument sounds logical but are you 100% sure it is correct?

A certificate of title and a license plate registration are two different things. An early title or registration would certainly have included a date of issue, make, model and serial number but I'm not sure that in the early days that model year was included.

Also, while all states had license plate registration early on, many did not issue certificates of title until much later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 03:32 pm:

My T has engine build date of Sept 30 1921 and the Oregon title shows the year as being 1921. I will do some more research as time allows. In Oregon the license registration shows the same info as the title; year, make, model, vin etc. I guess my question to the Oregon DMV would be: Does the year indicate the calender or model year? Your state may very.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 03:38 pm:

One way to tell if your T is older than 23 is the 23 and newer will have a hole near the top of the quarter panel that the shaft for the top rest saddles goes thru. The earlier cars have a bracket that goes over the edge of the body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Saturday, September 15, 2012 - 07:47 pm:

Larry, the steering column brace was considered a '24 feature by Ford, so I'd say it probably appeared along with the high radiator and cowl.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, September 16, 2012 - 04:08 am:

Don't forget, back in the day, many states titled a car in the year it was sold, not what model year it was supposed to be. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Sunday, September 16, 2012 - 10:16 am:

Too bad the Horseless Carriage Club came up with that 1915 cut off date. They should have made it 1914 instead. We would have a lot more later T's around if it wasn't for that!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 01:34 am:

Larry S,
I agree with you. Even though, two of the main cars I have used for HCCA have been late'15/early'16, I have long believed the cut-of should have been model year and one year earlier. All years in those days had marques with confusing changes. But the '15/'16 was the worst. Two of the four largest producers of automobiles did something strange. Ford, the largest producer, made running changes throughout the year and had no real distinction between the two years. Studebaker, the second, third, or fourth largest producer depending on how you count their cars, built three totally different year-models during calender year 1915.
The HCCA started out as a very loose "pre'15". How 1917s and 1920s qualified as pre'15, I'll never understand. But many of the cars used on national tours in the early days were not pre'16. Eventually, pre'15 came to mean 1915 inclusive. Later arguments ended up with the before January 1916 agreement. Further arguments to come. But don't expect them to lower the qualification. Too many members in good standing have 1915s and use them.
There are many people that believe the cut-off should have been 1912.
Enough of my ranting for now.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


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