Got my '22 T touring out of storage and it had to be loaded onto the trailor with a fork lift because the R rear wheel would not turn. Got er home, jacked up the rear end and started the engine. When I dropped er into high the L rear wheel turned fine, R wheel wouldnt move. Took the R wheel off and repeated the above, L turned fine again but the spindle on the R did not move. Where do I go from hear?
Right brake shoe rusted to the drum or the hand brake was engaged when parked and will not release?
The differential will allow the left rear wheel to turn when towing or under power.
Try penetrating oil on the brake linkages and tap them lightly to check for movement. Compare the left and right linkages for similar movements.
I would then rock the car back and forth to break the shoes loose and even try towing the car slowly to see if the wheel will break loose without dragging the tire.
Remove the right side Hyatt bearing and check its condition and that of the axle.
Probably has a solid roller repro Hyatt bearing that has disintigrated and locked up on that side.
There is a cap-like part...I think a dust cover that I am wondering how to get off. Have some old gear pullers. The bearing must be inside that cover....? Any tips before I try to "Pull" that cover off? It is flarred all around the edges if that helps anyone.
I use a small crowbar to pry the dust cap off.
Ford Service manual picture.
Here's what caused my right rear wheel to seize up: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html.
Thanks for all the advice and references. I did get the cover off with the small crow bar (thanks Jack) but now I am stuck with roller bears that I can not get out. I can get the rollers about a 1/4 inch out but no further. I see a "sleeve puller" in a parts book, maybe I should get that and a new rear axel bearing. From the pic I can not see how the puller would help. However, before I do anything else I am going to take Steves advice and pick up some more reading material.
Fred part of what your experiencing might be due to the weight of the differential assembly. It causes the axle to tilt or lean on the outter bearing as you try to remove it. You'll see this more clearly after you get the bearing out. The axle end won't stay centered in the bearing hole but will lean to one side (usually upward). I had the same problem and my sleeves weren't that worn. A small pipe on the threaded end of the axle and a helper to take the pressure off (keep it centered) might be all you need to get the bearing out. There's not a lot of force but it's enough to drive you nuts mainly because there's no way to grab the bearing besides a hooked wire.
The sleeve puller is handy, but it's just for removing the sleeves after the bearings are out. It won't help you with the bearings. For that I'd try a couple of hooks made from coat hangers. That kind of wire is small enough to reach inside but stiff enough not to be bent easily.
The puller is for pulling out the bearing sleeve not the bearing. This is how I remove bearings. Run the axle nut all the way onto the axle then hook the bearing with a wire or bent screw driver. Now slowly turn the axle with a ratchet while pulling on the bearing. It should slide right out. Also, I would stick with a good original bearing.
Just to expand slightly on Stephen's comment about what bearing to use, the new bearings currently available are inferior to the original Hyatt bearings. Some say the new bearings aren't as bad as their reputation, but I'll use good originals as long as I can get them.
got the bearing out with the help of two screw drivers. Once I had it about a 1/4" out I tapped gently around the edges until it was about half to three fourths out then pulled it out by hand. The old bearing I thought was the culprit because I could "twist" the originals about a quarter of an inch. (The new ones dont turn like that) The old ones by the way have the groove that ran around each of the bearings which makes me think it may have been the original. The new bearings do not have that as someone here mentioned but it has five connections to the end plates of the bearings while the original only had four. Now for the sad news. The right spindle still doesn't turn. I started the car (on jack stands) With the right wheel off. As far as I can see things look ok....but remember this is the first one I have ever seen. I did unscrew the drain plug on the rear end and got a small amount of oil out but it was the color of rust. (very orange but didn't feel gritty) Did someone in another life time tell me that water could get into the tranny and then go down the drive shaft into the rear end? Clearly, this project has just begun...all comments and thoughts are greatly appreciated.
It would be best to pull the rear axle and completely overhaul it. Even if you did manage to free the axle shaft the car still could not be driven safely until the rear axle has be gone through.
Fred, you've seen my page about this, so you know where to start. Looks like you have a fall/winter project on your hands.
any tricks for pulling the bearing sleeve out? I did buy a puller but I can not feel the hole in the sleeve because my fingers are to fat to get inside to locate it. From the looks of the puller I would guess the hole is not to far in... but where? Tried to feel around hoping it would snap it but no cigar. Maybe I should wait until I get the rear end and axel apart to remove the sleeve.
Take a look at that Fred >>> http://www.modeltford.com/i/c/1971l.jpg
Fred, take the grease fitting off the back of the axle ,that is in line with the hole in the sleeve and you can see when it pops in.
The hole in the sleeve should be aligned with the grease fitting.
Just estimate the distance from the end of the axle housing and insert the puller the correct distance.
Then rotate the puller until the pin drops in the hole.
Once it is in the hole draw a line on the puller so you will so I can put it in the correct distance the next time you use it.
You can also mark the location of the pin so I could easily see it's location.
It will save a lot of time --
Took the grease fitting off the back of the axle. After I cleaned the fitting out the best I could all I can see is the shinny backside of the sleeve. It appears the sleeve may have been but in wrong....or could they have put the left sleeve in the right side? Thought about drilling thru the sleeve and then trying to use the puller again. Also think the grease fitting may have some rust deep inside because I can not see much more that a pin hole of the shinny metal sleeve. I tried to see if light would show thru the grease fitting but no cigar. Anther thought running thru my greenhorn brain. Would the hole in the sleeve be at the same depth on both sides?
Yes, it's possible to get the right and left sleeves mixed up. If you have a left sleeve in the right housing the grease hole won't line up. In that case the only grease on the bearing would be what was packed in when the bearing was installed. No new grease would reach it through the hole.
But that should have no effect on the puller. All you need is for the button on the puller so snap into the grease hole in the sleeve. The hole is 2.75" from the end of the housing. Fasten a hose clamp around the puller 2.75" from the center of the button. When you insert the puller as far as the clamp will allow and turn it, the button should find the hole.
Making a little progress, I can see the hole in question in the sleeve but just can not get the puller to snap into place. Used the 2.75" trick Steve and still no cigar. That is only the first problem. The trailer I brought the car home with belongs to a friend and he will need it soon. Can I repack the roller bearing and put it back onto the car WITHOUT the axal key (let it free wheel) and just roll the car off the trailor? Maybe even drive it into the shop with only L wheel drive? Worried about damage to the axal.... One last note, am not worried about the rear end fluid as it did drain as soon as I unscrewed the plug...the "orange" drainage. Doesn't feel gritty. Turns out its the same color as the "600W" oil that I have from on of the vendors.
Yes, you can put the bearing back in and the wheel on the shaft without the key. Slather grease on the taper temporarily. Be sure it's all cleaned off the shaft and out of the hub before final reassembly. Turn the nut far enough to hold the wheel on without wobble but loose enough for the wheel to turn. You can roll it a short distance, but DON'T try to drive it.
Clean rear end oil suggests that the thrust washers haven't failed. Yet. You don't know their condition until you see them.
From my experience, hitting the hole with the pin takes a bit of time, I did nut use the hose clamp method, but after holding the puller next to the axle housing, I put my thumb on the puller to gauge depth, and it still took a bit of fishing to hit the hole, and I pretty much knew where it was. The pin is a pretty tight fit in the hole, so it has to be right on.
If you can find the location of the hole in the sleeve, you can try using a hook, something like an old long screwdriver with a hook bent into the end of it. Then try to locate the hole and scrape out whatever dirt, and old material is lodged in the hole. After you clean out the hole, try to use the sleeve again. What I think might have happened is that old grease is dried in the hole, especially if the hole is not in alignment with the grease fitting. When the hole is cleaned out, the puller should be useable. Note, while you have the axle jacked up on both ends, leave the parking brake lever forward into high gear. Then try to rotate the left wheel. If it turns over the engine but not move the right axle, your stuck axle problem is internal to the differential. To verify this, have someone push the foot brake while another rotates the left rear wheel (this will work if you don't have auxiliary brakes or if they are disconnected). If the left wheel can't be turned, the problem is definitely internal.
Make sure the grease cup is not screwed down to far. Into the axle housing.
They can stop the pin from entering the hole.
Remove the grease cup and try again if you haven't already.
Thanks for all the tips. I did get the hole cleaned out with a 90 degree pick; the puller snapped in and I got er out. Used the twist and pull technique someone here mentioned. Another question. On the outside of the sleeve there is a small bump, very near the end of the sleeve, what is that for? I can not feel or see a spot where I think it would fit. (The sleeve has a Ford script on it...might be worth more than my T ;))
That bump fits into a dimple inside the housing to keep the sleeve in place. Look again. It's there.
Fred, This is a quote from your previous post.
"got the bearing out with the help of two screw drivers. Once I had it about a 1/4" out I tapped gently around the edges until it was about half to three fourths out then pulled it out by hand. The old bearing I thought was the culprit because I could "twist" the originals about a quarter of an inch. (The new ones dont turn like that) The old ones by the way have the groove that ran around each of the bearings which makes me think it may have been the original."
I didn't quite understand if you have the new style bearings or the originals. If you're going to have to rebuild that rearend there's a very good chance your going to be changing axles, ring and pinion and bearings as well as a host of other parts.
The reason I've brought it up is because if the rearend has been rebuilt then you probably have the new bronze thrust washers in already, but if you don't, your going to end up rebuilding it.
The new style bearings could be an indicator you've got the new thrust washers and all you have to do is figure out what is causing the lockup.
Steve thanks, you are right....again. I didn't see the hole but I did feel it and got it cleaned out. My thought was when I replace the sleeve the bump will insure that the hole in the sleeve is in the correct position to allow the bearings to be greased. I can see where it would keep the sleeve in place now that you mention it. Also noted the grease hole is tappered..to keep me from overfilling?
Mike, yeah my earlier post is kinda hard to interpret. The roller bearing I took out of the car had the groove run all the way around the bearings. The new ones I bought are still on the bench, next to the originals. I ordered the new ones before I had the old bearings out. (That is the reason I have a few new parts that I don't need..always wondered why car guys always had so many parts)
Norman, thanks for your tip too. With the rear end up and car in high I can turn the L wheel and the R spindle moves a little. When I rock the L wheel back my 1st Asst and CEO tells me the spindle moves backwardwards too. In each case the movement is only about a quarter turn and then stops even if I make a full turn of the tire. Thinking about putting it all back together and see if, with the car running in high I can turn the R wheel and get it to start going. Might be a good way to skin up my hands but would it hurt anything in the rear end? Sounds like I am headed for a class in rear end rebuilding anyway.
Something is definitely WRONG inside your rear axle assembly. If you keep attempting to force it to move, you will likely break or damage something you don't want to break or damage. Take the rear end out and take it apart and find out what is wrong.
Honestly, that will take less time than all this fiddling!
How do I know that???
Your latest information indicates serious problems in the gears. I think something broke and the pieces are caught between the pinion/ring gear and/or the planetary (spider) gears. I would strongly recommend not trying to operate the drive shaft with the engine or drive the car, because you may do more damage to parts not yet lost to the failure.
You could probably roll the car off the trailer with the axle keys removed and axles greased with retaining nuts loose(and cotter pins back in :>) ) to allow hubs to turn on the axles.
well I would have jumped on it by now but the car is still on a trailer. Will get it off and attack the problem with both feet. Will medicare pay for 80% of my cost? ;)
As David says, remove the whole rear end and take it all apart, you've got bigger troubles than can be fixed from the outside.
An update on my problem. Sent the problem over to a friend who is a real "wrench" He had the rear axle off and the diff all apart in no time. Easy for him....he has a hugh shop, a ton of tools, years of experience and he knows what he is doing! We still do not know what was in the rear end. He had me come over after he had it apart. The gunk felt like semisold hunks of dirt...except when you pinched them really hard they would break up but never looked like dirt. Can old oil gel become this thick? He checked in with one of the suppliers and is putting everything back and using neoprene axle seals and the aluminum sealed housing cap. Sounds good to me. I guess my thought now is "can dirt get into the rear end"?...
Chunks are likely what is left of babbit washers.
Unless you have or another can testify they replaced the old babbitt metal thrust washers, every old Model T rear end not running in years will look like this on inspection.
Melted, disintegrated, busted babbitt metal thrust washer and related compositions of dissolved metallic gunk
Like Dan says your rear axle likely has some serious issues, likely the thrust washers are missing now. Does your friend have any experience working on Model T rear axles? They are really simple to work on but you need to be sure they are assembled properly to prevent serious injury or death to people riding in your car.
Should look like this:
Get some good used Hyatt bearings for the axles. If you must use the new plain roller bearings, use them only on the outer locations, so you can get to them if they need to be replaced.
It's the outer locations that take the most load. That's where they would be most likely to fail.
You can reuse the old bearings with loose cages if you tighten the cage first. Think one of the books they sell said to use a centerpunch on the loose pin if the hole is not so bad that the pin falls out that is..