I am in the process of checking the alignment on the front end of my 1916 Touring. Measuring on a level surface (my garage apron)I find that there is 3/8" difference at the bottom of the axle at the spring perch.
Further measurements led me to two different spindles. The left spindle measures 2 5/8" from center of spindle (reference the hole behind the spindle)and the right spindle measures 3".
The inside of the spindle shaft is round on the right and has flat areas front and rear, round top and bottom (like the one in Fig 372, Model T Service Manual, page 166).
I will be shortening the hub bolts and peening before traveling.
Which is right for a 1916?
The driver side spindle is incorrect. I believe it is for 26 - 27 model years.
As far as I know, the driver's side one is incorrect. The flats were introduced to allow the inner cone to be driven off the spindle. If the spindle is closer to the top than the one on the right, then it may well be the 26-7 style Royce mentioned.
Allan from down under.
Thanks Royce, Allan: Looks like I am now in search mode for replacement spindle.
Thanks again
THANK AND SUPPORT AMERICA'S TROOPS
Sam,
I believe Royce nailed it – you most likely have a single later 1926-27 spindle on your car (although there were also accessory spindles and the spindles from some other cars of the period can be adapted to fit the Model T axle).
From the Ford announcement about the improved car it says, “Chassis Frame—The chassis frame has been dropped one and one-half inches. This has been accomplished without materially affecting the road clearance by lowering the crown of the springs one inch. The spindle has been raised on the spindle body one-half inch.” Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1926-27H.htm
Below is a photo posted by Ken (and possibly Ken reposted it? – so thank you to Ken and anyone else that may have originally posted the comparison). If you zoom in you can see that the middle spindle also has the flats cut off (actually forged into the spindle).
Ken stated: Other than the one-piece very early spindle, these are the three most common types. The one on the left is pre-17. The one in the middle is 17-25 and on the right is 26-27. You'll notice that the 26-27 axle stub is set higher on the spindle body. This was done to lower the car. If you have one 26-27 spindle it will place the axle on that side lower to the ground. And as you say, place the bolt lower.
At http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/46857.html Royce shares “The longer spindles with flats cut on the inner race are for roller bearing equipped Model T's made after about 1919.
The early spindle is a desirable part for someone who wants their pre - 19 T to look right. You should be able to get a trade very easily.”
Back to Hap – I am not sure of the actual date the spindle started having the flats so it was easier to remove the bearing race. Clearly your 1916 would have had the earlier style spindle without the flats. If anyone has some better documentation on when Ford introduced the flats please let us know. I would have guessed that when they changed the drawing to have a slightly longer spindle for use with the roller bearings they would have changed the flats also. But I do not have access to my normal files and so far I have not located anything that specifically addresses when the flats were added.
Good news any two piece 1911-1925 set of spindles will fit and function fine on any 1911-1925 axle. Depending on if you have the wishbone above the axle or below the axle you should use the corresponding spindle arms. They changed during 1919 ref:
APR 14, 1919 Acc. 235, Box 39, #385, Ford Archives
"From this date two distinct designs of front radius rods, together with front spring perches, right and left, one on the Model T and the other on Model TT.
"The Model TT design will be assembled beneath the axle, instead of above the axle through the spring perch as heretofore.
"Although it would be possible to use the Model T design on the Model TT, we request this be resorted to only in case of a shortage serious enough to threaten loss of production." At:
http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc19.htm
CAUTION: As you look for a replacement spindle note that the two piece 1911-1925 spindle comes in a right and left version. You want the nut and wheel bearings to tend to loosen as the car rolls forward rather than tending to tighten. The spindle will fit on either side – because the spindle arms will fit either spindle (prior to 1915 they right arm had an additional hole for the speedometer to fit and the first few months of the 1911 two piece spindle did not have the hole and the later 1915s (if someone has a better date please let us know – clearly there would have been some over lap when both styles could have been used at different assembly plants etc.) -1919 xxx month whenever they switched to the wishbone under the axle did not have that hole in the right hand spindle arm. The later curved spindle arms did not come with a hole for the speedometer. If you install the wrong spindle the bearing which originally was threaded can tighten up and either lock the wheel, split the hub, etc. It actually can be driven that way ok – with no side effects – until the bearing starts to tighten up and then it goes down hill really quick. We had a club member who had the hub split. He knew it was the wrong spindle but he had not gotten around to correcting it. Fortunately it happened in his driveway and not on the road.
Good luck with your car.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Thanks Hap. Looks like one of the major vendors has used spindles reasonably priced if they have one in stock.
I have not forgotten to check for part/id numbers on my 16. Just been very busy trying to be sure it is safe to enjoy.
THANK AND SUPPORT AMERICA'S TROOPS
Sam -- I have several extra spindles and would be glad to send you one. Email me at waterwalk99@hotmail.com.
Another point in the difference between the earlier two-piece ('11 to '18) and the later two-piece ('19 to '25). Although any spindle will fit on any axle, they should not be mixed. The earlier ones have less camber than the later ones. Many brass era Ts are running on later spindles, and mostly nobody cares. But if you are going to run a later spindle, both of them need to be later.
I am rebuilding two earlier front ends right now. For me, I am getting all the spindles correct (no flats against the inner bearing).
It may surprise many that there are also minor variations in the camber of the later spindles. They don't seem to be very common. But some original Ford spindles do have slightly more or less camber. Some years ago, a member of the SCVMTFC had steering issues with one of his Ts. After checking everything else ever suggested on this forum, he removed both spindles. He made a jig to accurately measure the camber and found three different common cambers on the'19 to'25 era spindles. Most were of one camber. A few were the in-between. And a few more were less.
He then put a matching set on his car. His T steered wonderfully ever after.
I have mentioned this before on threads about tough to find steering problems. I have not heard of anyone else verifying his findings. I have seen two that did not match.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Wayne,
Thanks for posting your comments. Lots of things are possible. Did your friend have any data in addition to measuring the used spindles?
I would suspect that a change in the spindle that would cause a change in the camber would be annotated at a minimum on the change cards for that part. I.e. the people manufacturing the spindle would need to know how to make it or how to make the forging that made the part. If the new part caused a steering issue there would have been a note in the price list of parts along with a comment such as "When used to replace 1911-18 year spindles -- replace both spindles." or something similar. The Price List of Parts have several notes on what to do when use a later part on an earlier car when something else needs to be changed. I do not remember seeing any such notes on the spindles (but then the memory is not as good as it once was). But the 5:1 steering gears clearly state -- they should not be mixed with the 4:1 steering gears (at least in the Service Bulletin -- but there may also be a note in the price list of parts -- another item to check.)
If he was basing his conclusion on only used spindles -- he could still be "right." But do you know how large of a sample size he was looking at? Also why does he think the change in camber was due to a change in the production of the part rather than a spindle being subjected to a large load (i.e big bump etc.)? Or even being rejected because it was defective (some NOS parts were never installed because they did not fit properly).
You mentioned, "I have seen two that did not match." Did they match each other but not the other spindles? Or where they different from each other and different from the other spindles you compared them to?
By the way with a small sample size of 1, I can say that the very large difference in camber on our 1918 [you don't have to measure it -- you can see it clearly] has not made the steering squirrely. But it really eats up the tire on the front passenger side. Repairing that is one more item on the "to do list." In my single case we are certain it did not come from Ford that way.
If others have information to confirm, correct, or additional leads for information -- please let us know.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
I remember a thread on the angle some time back but I couldn't find it. I think I may have posted a few photos of the king pin bore to spindle center line angle. As I recall there was a change in the 26-27 to a smaller angle--Something like 1.5 degrees. The earlier spindles were something like 3 degrees.
It's pretty easy to see why the bore on the bushings will make a difference and why they need to be line reamed.
Here's the 26-27.
Here's the discussion from 2009 so the pictures I posted would be earlier than that. Still couldn't find the earlier post but this thread details the angles.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/113890.html