Rebuilding differential... ring and pinion noise normal?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Rebuilding differential... ring and pinion noise normal?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Malone on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 04:31 pm:

I am rebuilding a 26 T coupe rear end. Put it all together once, except there was a noise when rotating. Thought it was most likely gear lash since I set the ring and pinion clearance with a feeler gauge. So I got a dial indicator and have set it between .006 and .010. Same noise as gears engage. Is it normal for the ring and pinion gears to make a noise as they rotate when properly adjusted?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 04:46 pm:

The 2 rearends I rebuilt didn't have any noises like that. Someone else may have another opinion. James


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 04:55 pm:

Did you use new or used gears, and were the gears matched, that is if used gears were used were they both out of the same differential? How was the mesh pattern with prussian blue? Two things will make noisy rear axles. One is worn and noisy bearings, the other is worn gears which do not mesh correctly. It is more important to get the mesh pattern even than to get the clearance exact. Only brand new gears can be set with correct lash and also be quiet. The gears wear into a pattern and if that pattern is changed by changing the clearance, it can get noisy. If you care to try it, you can drive it a while and maybe, if you are lucky the gears will wear to fit :-), but if ** you*** are***** unlucky :-(
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Peterson on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 05:02 pm:

If you have mixed new cut gears and old cut gears (used and new) you can expect noise as there is a difference in the way they are cut. Also, mixing used gears may result in noise as the gears have worn a little differently.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Peterson on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 05:05 pm:

Norm appears to type faster than me, also explains things a little better!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Malone on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 05:41 pm:

I am using a brand new set of ring and pinion gears, so I suspect that isn't the problem. I replaced the drive shaft thrust bearing with a "modern" adjustable drive shaft bearing. Haven't checked the mesh pattern with prussian blue, I'll try that next. The sound reminds me of shuffling through a deck of cards slowly and is definitely coming from the gears meshing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 07:03 pm:

Mark -- It sounds to me (without actually hearing it) as if the ring and pinion gears are too tight with each other. Try adding 3 or 4 more paper gaskets for spacers between the pinion bearing spool and the rear end housings, and see how that sounds. If the rear end is out of the car, you can feel how it's doing by turning the U-joint. If you can feel each tooth, the mesh is too tight. If you feel much play before the axles turn, it's too loose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Malone on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 08:11 pm:

Lets see if I can post a video with sound.
http://youtu.be/-fg8IxSM4yk


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Malone on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 08:23 pm:

Also, here is a picture. I used grease instead of prussian blue. looks like good contact with entire tooth. The pinion is spaced using metal shims that came with the kit. I could increase the clearance of the ring gear by reducing the thickness of the bronze thrust washer, but the pinion appears aligned properly on the ring gear and without changing that it would seem to increase the backlash I already have.
Ring and Pinion


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 08:42 pm:

Agree with Mike, quietest rear ends have more lash. Could also be one or both housings are bent. Common situation. Gear ontact looks good until the housings are bolted together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 09:07 pm:

I can't tell by picture, or video, but both gears have to be even with each other, that is the length of tooth. That is done with shims on the drive shaft first, and if that won't do any more, you have the move the ring gear, in, or out, the way you said.

The first thing always to do is set the end play, with both housings, to no more then .010 thousandths, then you set the gear clearance. What ever thickness then is taken off, or added to the ring gear side, has to be added, or subtracted to the other side when you get the clearance you want, and you will still have the .010 end play on the carriage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 09:11 pm:

I for got to say, the sound it is making now, is to tight, I would guess, about .003, to .005 thousandths, but I couldn't see how much effort you were putting into the turning.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 09:19 pm:

Mark

Also look for any interference of the pinion gear and the bolt ends holding the ring gear. Had that noise and needed to shave the pinion gear teeth. Or contact of the pinion nut with the differential case. Ford parts and reproduction parts sometimes need a bit of caressing :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 09:46 pm:

Sounds too tight to me.
I'm not familiar with the ball bearing replacement.
How is the depth of the mesh controlled? With shims as mentioned above by Mike Walker?
Or rear of the universal joint by the driveshaft bushing flange?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, September 18, 2012 - 10:00 pm:

I agree, too tight. A very small adjustment is all you need, maybe one thousandth.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Wednesday, September 19, 2012 - 08:48 am:

Assemble the driveshaft completely. The upper bushing helps to set the pinion depth, along with the pinion thrust bearings & roller bearing. You may need extra paper gaskets to set clearance.

Did you have the bearing pre-load set on the ring gear side of the axel ? Important for setting true clearance of gears.


The video shows the pinion being turned with the shaft only.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Wednesday, September 19, 2012 - 08:52 am:

Also.......... some of the new gear sets are still being sold with improper bolt retaining holes in the ring gear. The proper orientation is that the threaded holes must be at the peak of the gear tooth, not in the valley. When the bolts are installed, the pinion gear teeth will contact the retaining bolt making noise & "speed bumps". If so, just grind down the length of the bolts and install. Been there ..........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Malone on Wednesday, September 19, 2012 - 11:31 am:

Thanks everybody. Concensus appears to be that they are too tight. Will experiment with the thickness of the bronze thrust washer today. To answer Craig, the drive shaft roller bearing kit provides multiple shims to choose from in setting the pinion gear. The shims are placed on the shaft between the pinion gear and the roller bearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Wednesday, September 19, 2012 - 06:16 pm:

Mark:

The club has videos on rebuilding the rear axel. Useful tips . Try to locate fellow chapter members who are willing to loan you the videos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Malone on Wednesday, September 19, 2012 - 07:34 pm:

Placing a reduced thickness bronze thrust washer did increase the lash to .018-.020 but didn't solve the noise problem. I bought and watched the videos before tearing into it a second time. I'll watch them again... probably missed something important.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, September 19, 2012 - 11:59 pm:

Thanks Mark......I was curious about that...... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 11:02 am:

No help here, but it took me a while to figure out what that sound reminded me of, wood gears in a wind/water mill.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 12:45 pm:

I know I'm sounding like a rusty gate for stating it yet again, but, here goes;

Don't fret too much over backlash. If your gearset rolls smoothly when in mesh the backlash will take care of itself. Using the Prussian blue, as suggested above, you can judge where and how the pinion gear teeth engage & line up with the ring gear teeth. A nice linear pattern, covering the length of the mating tooth, or at least centered on the mating tooth, is what you're looking for. That, along with smooth rolling engagement, with no little "pulses" felt in the rotation of the driveshaft, both in forward & reverse, will give you what you're looking for. Once you have achieved the above, then check your backlash, first to be sure you actually have some and, second to ensure that it's not excessive. Aside from that, the backlash will take care of itself but starting out by only setting backlash, as if that's the only consideration, will not yield a properly meshed gearset.

Your grease method of checking contact area will not work. The grease will simply squish out evenly over the entire tooth face and give the impression of full contact. It will not differentiate from showing true contact versus a few thousandths short of contact. Use the prussian blue or a magic marker and try again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 01:06 pm:

Mark I suggest you seriously consider the probability that one or both of your axle housings are bent. The large majority of those I see are.
One time I had 1912 clamshell rear end I restored. Everything was new inside that could be. I tried everything to secure a quiet rear end. Lash was good, gear contact good, etc. However try as I might, including using tapered shims, I never was able to quiet things down once things were buckled up. I must have torn it down and reassembled it 30 times. I got so good at it, I was able to do so twice a day and check it out by driving the car. All this happened before I made my own jig for checking and straighten housings. I later discovered the housings were indeed bent.
If you've played with fit and lash and nothing quiets down, I think you have a problem with your axle housings.
I you want photos of the jig, email me. There is a fellow in L.A. that will straighten them for you but I would suggest you do it yourself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Malone on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 11:33 pm:

Tore that sucker down again today. I will recheck the housing. Also got another idea about what I could be doing wrong, but wont get a chance to test it until Sunday. If I'm right, it probably qualifies as the rookie mistake of the year!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 11:44 pm:

On a similar question it was mentioned that the hole pattern on the repro ring gear was mislocated with respect to the teeth and the pinion was clipping the bolt heads as it rotate. I think the title was "Clicking and popping under my feet".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 07:04 am:

Mark, I didn't read all the input on your thread but recently had a Ruckstell rear end I was rebuilding with the same problem.

Long story short is that your pinion gear isn't riding at the correct spot on the pinion gear. If the pinion rides too far in or out on the ring gear, the gears don't mesh properly and you get the ratcheting sound when the gears rotate. I went past the sweet spot when shimming the driveshaft/pinion assy. and scratched my head for a while on this. The more I shimmed the worse it got.
You will have to get the pinion depth in the correct spot and then get the back lash set by shimming or removing thickness from the thrust washer as necessary. Contact me offline for more information.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brandon French-Tigard, Or on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 11:32 am:

HEy Mark Im chasing the same ghost. Mine doesnt make as much noise but very similiar. My mesh seems to be as tight as yours, I also used new parts. My noise seems to be coming from the spider gears. If it seems too tight can you sand down the gasket that goes between the shafts or add one depending on the problem? Good luck man, I hope you figure it out because you just may help me out as well. Good Luck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Malone on Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 11:45 am:

YES! Got it. Turns out I was not centering the pinion in the ring properly like Kenny said above. It finally sank into the grey matter. I initially set it up with the inboard outer edge of the pinion gear tooth centered with the valley between the ring gears. Should of set it just the opposite, but didn't because the pinion would then contact the ends of the ring gear bolts. Fiddling around with the gears I found that, with the gear taper, the further outboard I moved the pinion gear the greater the tendency for the gears to grab and pull toward the center. The result was the clacking sound as the gears meshed. So I've shortened the ring gear bolts, centered the pinion properly and now turns without that terrible clacking noise. Great advice everyone. Thanks Again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 12:27 pm:

Triple gears can only make noise when you are going around a corner. When driving straight ahead they are not moving at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 01:15 pm:

The problem with the misplaced holes on the new ring gears is that the protruding ends of the bolts align with the pinion teeth and in some cases make contact.


I wonder if the manufacturer of the new ring gears has been made aware of this.

You can grind down the bolt ends or let the pinion teeth wear them down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 02:05 pm:

Steve,
THAT is a great photo! Please send it to the suppliers--if you can't find the manufacturer!
Mark,
You did remember the cotter pin on the pinion nut, didn't you? Can't tell from the pic on my screen.
T'
David D.
PS Years ago I rebuilt the rear end in my wife's '31 A after a catastrophic bearing failure, but used some old gears. They're not straight cut like T's and I ended up with a slight whine under compression. It did finally go away after a few thousand miles.


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