Garage Safety. Fire prevention

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Garage Safety. Fire prevention
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 11:48 am:

I haven't seen it mentioned lately so, here it is, as winter approaches. I'm sure you've noticed that one of the downsides to owning a Model T is the constant smell of gasoline in your garage. This should serve as a reminder to be careful, as an over abundance of those fumes can be dangerous. If you have your propane fueled water heater or house heater, equipped with a pilot light located in the garage where you keep your Model T, please be sure you are careful in storing your cans of gasoline far away from the ignition sources and, in the case of your Model T, please be sure to ALWAYs turn off the gas at the fuel valve, so that it does not leak onto the floor. Gas fumes are what is flammable and they are heavier than air and snake across the floor many feet from the spill and if the fumes happen to find their way to an ignition source, such as a heater pilot light or space heater, you will have a fire on your hands. Be always mindful. Anyone who has ever had a fire that consumed their house and injured them (like me) knows that it doesn't take much time for a beautiful day to turn ugly. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Malone on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 12:10 pm:

Great advice. If Murphy should visit; I would add, if your garage is attached, make sure your door going into the living space is rated and has a self closer (that works) and check your dang smoke detectors!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 12:16 pm:

"I'm sure you've noticed that one of the downsides to owning a Model T is the constant smell of gasoline in your garage."

You should never have a smell of gasoline in your garage due to a Model T. I have 3 in my garage and no gas smell. Install a shutoff at the carb & fix any carb leaks you may have. No reason for fumes if everything is o.k.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 12:31 pm:

Make sure the tank fuel shut off does NOT leak. Most ones on a T do. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 03:24 pm:

This morning I went to start up a T inside the garage. I turned on the gas and started to crank it. I couldn't get it started, then I looked and gas was pouring out. I believe the float was stuck because banging on the carburetor stopped the leak. It's also possible that I over choked it. I don't have any gas flames in my garage, but I would recommend that if you do have a gas flame such as a water heater or other heater in your garage that you push the T outside before you turn on the gas. Just in case.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 03:31 pm:

Good reminder, Jim. Too bad you had to suffer it. Experience is what you have just after you need it.

Ts have the carb lower than the gas, so there's always a potential for a leak. Is there an electronic detector for gasoline fumes?

Somewhere I have a fuel shutoff that's intended to be triggered by oil pressure. It could just as well be triggered by ignition ON. That way, you can't forget it.

Fuel leaking is not such a problem with the Fronty and its high carb.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lloyde Eckley on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 04:08 pm:

If you have a gas fired ignition source in your garage you need to get rid of it now!! There is just too much risk involved with the constant possibility of fuel leak or spill. Change to electric water heater or fully enclose your gas fired in a small room with a sealed door. Don't take a chance, it won't be a question of IF you have a fire, it will be WHEN.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Thursday, September 20, 2012 - 08:09 pm:

Since I put aviation petcock grease on my petcocks, and replaced the float valve in carburetor, my T has lost the gasoline smell.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/ezturnlube.php

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 12:28 am:

There are millions of homes with gas fired water and space heaters in the garage attached to the living quarters. One key is to have that ignition source elevated off the floor 24" in most locals that is the code. Also check and make sure your vents located around the base of the perimeter garage walls are open and not blocked with storage. Most garages have many potiential fire igniton sources.

October is National Fire Prevention month and a great time to survey your fire safety issues.

Change the batteries each year in all your smoke detectors. If you have "smokes" that are nearing the 10 year old time limit, simply install new ones. They're cheap and work extremely well.

This is also a good time to take a look for that red can with a hose on it that you have piled lots of stuff in front of. Your fire extinguisher is something you'll need to be able to quickly see and get to when you have that little fire, Don't worry about using it on the big one just get out!

It's a good time to clean and check your heating units, get rid of all those empty or partially used flammables and spray cans of paint that have plugged nozzles. They're filled with propane and make fine rockets in any fire spreading it to other areas.

Those acetylene or propane tanks need to be secured along with your oxygen bottle.

It has been said that that a small can of mower gas is equal to a stick of dynomite in a fire but I've have taught fire training with live fires and fought many also but have never tested that one.

While I'm rambling... I recommend a 5 Pound ABC fire extinguisher cause you get a hose with it. Get the one with the Most Horsepower! Read the ratings on the back, the bigger the numbers the better. I can tell you from years of experience that those little 2 1/2 lb ones that you see in cars will not be useful after 5 (FIVE) SECONDS... If your LUCKY you can put out a lot of fire but maybe Not. Get the biggest one.

Be careful, be safe, think ahead

Gene Carrothers
Retired Fire Chief

Haven't tried that one


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 02:22 am:

My family sleeps above the attached garage wherein my Model T spends most of its time and I'm absolutely paranoid when it comes to the subject of fire, so every morning and every evening before heading for bed, I go downstairs, open the door to the attached garage and (without snapping on the light) stick my nose in and take a sniff. If I don't smell gasoline, I switch on the light to visually check the position of the lock handle on the inside of big, roll-up garage door. Then, I go back to what I was doing, before.

On one occasion, I did get a little whiff of gasoline. I entered the garage and heard a slow, steady patter of gas drips hitting the garage floor. Turned out I had forgotten to shut off the gasoline valves and my carburetor was leaking.

Now, it's a pain in the neck to have to physically get under the car to shut off the gasoline valve at the sediment bowl. It's much more convenient to, instead, shut off the under-the-hood valve, but that won't help at all if the fuel line develops a crack (as fuel lines sometimes do) and starts emptying the tank onto the garage floor. That's why, anytime the car goes into the garage, I shut off both valves.

Winter makes for an interesting gasoline dilemma. If your Model T has a half-empty or almost empty gas tank, cold temperatures will cause condensation and form water droplets within. These will drip down and collect as a puddle at the bottom of your tank because water is heavier than fuel. Of course, water causes rust and you can thereby develop a gasoline leak. If, on the other hand, your Model T has a full gas tank, condensation is far less likely to occur, but if for some other reason you do spring a leak... well, then there's the hazard posed by ten gallons of gasoline on the floor of an enclosed garage. In any case, it's probably a good idea to occasionally get under and open the drain valve on the sediment bowl to remove any water accumulation from the tank.

That big ol' fuel tank does make me nervous, so I keep a siphon and two empty, 5-gallon gas cans in the garage, just in case. I also keep a fire extinguisher, but it's time to consider a much bigger one.

This winter, I'll probably take one of the front wheels off for stripping and refinishing. Now, I'm not comfortable with the thought of being unable to roll the car out of the garage in an emergency, so instead of using an immovable jack-stand during the two or three weeks it'll take to apply a dozen coats of varnish to the wheel, I'll buy a cheapie, decrepit front wheel from somewhere and put that on the car for the meanwhile.

For some reason, collector cars suffer a much higher rate of spontaneous electrical fires than do non-collector cars. A simple battery-disconnect switch makes the problem a non-issue (as long as you remember to use it). Collector car insurance companies do offer a modest discount for owners who install a battery-disconnect switch. By the way, this little gadget also comes in handy if you happen to be in the habit of encouraging car-show spectators to sit in your car. It won't matter when they accidentally step on your starter switch if the battery-disconnect switch is in the off position. And if you're cagey about where you mount it, the switch becomes a theft- deterrent device.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 08:18 am:

Thanks, Gene, that's a good list.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip), Lake Clear, NY on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 08:41 am:

Just a quick note-- Make sure your fire extinguisher is up to date and make sure you shake it up on a regular basis. The chemicals can settle and compact in the bottom of the can. It is a good idea to shake op your extinguishers once a month and this includes the on in your car.. Also be sure to have a sealed METAL can to put dirty(greasy or oily) rags in . A pile of oily rags can cause spontaneous combustion and start a fire!.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 10:35 am:

If you are in the market for a new furnace get one with sealed combustion, they take all their air from outside, never put a water heater in a sealed room as suggested, you will have a problem with the burner not working and a lot of soot, one square inch of free air area for each 1000 BTU of gas input.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike bartlett Oviedo,Fl on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 11:52 am:

In my 2 car garage,which is packed solid with t parts,tools,chemicals and paint of too many varieties,I have six fire extinguishers and fortunatley no gas or foul odors of any kind. Lucky I guess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 11:54 am:

Rick is right -- putting a sealed room around a water heater is a bad idea....UNLESS you also provide an outside air source. I've done that by installing a dryer vent into the room (flapper removed), or by cutting a hole in the floor and covering either with screen to keep out, well, you know. As a general rule, you need an incoming air hole whose area is twice that of the flue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 11:58 am:

Several years ago I posted a description and pictures of the fuel shutoff I installed on my T. I think it was a good design, and I don't have to crawl under or open the hood.

I have saved the thread, and I'll try to post it here. If it doesn't work, and you are interested, you can email me at peteraphra@bellsouth.net and I'll send you the thread.

Use this link. Chris B Link to 2009 forum post

text/htmlFuel shutoff thread
Model T Ford Forum Fuel shutoff valve.htm (30.4 k)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Ida Fls on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 01:04 pm:

I caught my '07 Buick on fire the other day. You can take the top of a schebler carbutetor and adjust the float while the car is running. have done this several times over the years but this time the car backfired through the carb and lit the gas in the bowl. After several attempt to smother it I pulled the extinguisher out of the T and gave it a quick shot. It went out immediately.

Don't do dumb things and WITHOUT having an extinguisher handy.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 03:48 pm:

Richard,
Don't DO That!
The only thing I have set on fire lately (yesterday) were the two old towels I had draped over the '13 rear end that is ready to go back in the car to protect it from sparks while I was welding and grinding on the pan for the same car. Sparks can fly some distance. I had the torch about three feet from the towel. I guess that hot flame reaches farther than I thought. (Speaking of dumb things.)
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 05:14 pm:

I second what George said about shaking up your fire extinguishers on a regular basis. As posted earlier this year, we had a fire in our clothes drier and the extinguisher I grabbed was worthless even tough the gage showed full pressure. Don't know how old it was but had it a long time.
Had a reference for a 6 volt fuel shut off but can only find the 12 volt one for now. http://www.dan-marc.com/79-afc11112.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Davidson, Southern Nevada on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 08:08 pm:

Jim You are correct about the dangers of flammables. All to often we start overlooking the amount of energy that stands around us waiting for our failure of the most basic safety rules. Sorry for your prior loses. I go to great lengths to separate my hobbies from my living area and yet still find new ways of demonstrating the same old dangers. I actually have a stand alone smoke detector in my house linked to the smoke/heat detectors outback in the shop. Wife is always complaining about it going on from welding or the forklift exhaust. I always like her attention thou. Fireproof walls, solar heating,18foot ceilings, fire extinguishers at the welder and at every exit,10 lbs dry and multiple Halon, refillable rechargeable H2O bottle at the welder also, and on and on. Bob I'll always hope you never have a problem downstairs, I could never sleep over a gas fuel source, everything can set it off, be hard to upgrade to a new family if I was to survive. Be Safe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Friday, September 21, 2012 - 08:54 pm:

Bob, If I were you and since you are so conscious of the gas leaking exposure from your car I would change out your fuel line from the gas tank to a steel one. I installed a S/S steel line from the tank on my Torpedo to a fuel shutoff just under the floor board that I can reach from the outside of the car. Don't think you will ever hear of a steel line breaking like some of the other materials in use.

Yes, the best idea for those Dry Chemical extinguishers is to sit them upside down for a couple of hours at least. This allows the Very fine powder to sift back to the top and breaks up any caking inside. Double check the gage to make sure its in the green and hasn't leaked any pressure.

Do NOT Test Squirt it.... I know this sounds funny but I have seen this happen. The powder gets under the shutoff seal and it will leak over time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Saturday, September 22, 2012 - 10:10 am:

I just purchased a new hot water tank that of course has the
now compulsory “flame arrestor” design built in that claims to
prevent ignition of flammable vapor outside of the water heater.
This is a higher end model with power vent and electronic ignition
instead of a standing pilot light.
As well as the arrestor screen, it also has a small detector mounted
to the outer skin near the control box that is described as a
‘Flammable Vapor Sensor’ with the following information . . .
“Electronic sensor prevents burner operation if flammable vapors
are detected. The sensor will also prevent operation if there is ongoing
flammable vapor burn inside the combustion chamber”.

Here are photos of the sensor and the wiring diagram.





This will be used in my basement utility room (it has correct fresh air venting)
so I don’t have the same problem that is being discussed on this thread,
but thought it may be of interest to those who do when the time comes to
replace their old heaters (It's definitely not a cure for leaking carburetors).

Below >
This sealed 95% efficient furnace made an easy and tidy solution to heating my shop.
Mounted on a bracket above floor level and run in down draft configuration (it can be
installed to run updraft, down draft or on it’s side) it’s 40000 btu is a bit slow to recover
when the 10’ x 16’ door is opened on a real cold day, but with 800 sq ft and 12’ ceiling,
I have no problem keeping the temp up to whatever is desired otherwise (R40 ceilings
and R28 walls).

I have to tidy up the wiring, and have not as yet bothered with installing a
condensate pump, so I just put a pail under the drain back hoses and dump
it as needed (no floor drain and a hose thru the wall tends to freeze up).
I had planned on making a curved deflector for the hot air coming out of the
bottom of the furnace, but the square corner does an excellent job of directing
the heat to all of the far corners. A reusable filter lays nicely on the top inlet.
Even without plenums the filter provides enough restriction to keep the heat rise
on the furnace air flow within the required specs.
Reversible ceiling fans blowing ‘upwards’ keep the trapped heated air moving
across the ceiling and down near the walls (just reverse them for summer cooling).



Regards
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, September 22, 2012 - 11:41 am:

I looked at CO detectors with flammable vapor sensors at Louwes yesterday, and they detect NG and propane, but no mention of gasoline vapors.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Saturday, September 22, 2012 - 11:47 am:

You shouldn't smell gasoline around your T. Period. If you do, there is something wrong. And certainly, if the car is dripping fuel, fix it NOW. It's dangerous. You owe it to your neighbors, your family, and your T. On my '14 I have a new tank, new line, properly restored original bulb, all with properly sealed threads, and a Kingston 4 ball rebuilt by Russ Potter, all of which adds up to no leaks and no odor. Next to the car, I also have a ventless gas heater for those minus 20 winter days. No fear IF all is right with the car. If not, fix it right away or drain the fuel and put in a gallon of low odor mineral spirits for the winter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, September 22, 2012 - 12:07 pm:

If your car doesn't leak when it is parked, it is not likely to start leaking. But if you smell gas or notice a puddle under it, turn off all gas heaters and fix the T.

The biggest problem I have found is when you are not expecting a leak, and it leaks. Usually after the car has been parked a while and the gas in the carburetor gets gummy. Then the float sticks and you will either get no gas to the carburetor because it sticks closed, or you will get a constant flow because it sticks open. Draining the carburetor when parked is one way keep the carburetor from dripping, but it is also a way to get it to stick open, but if you have a good shutoff valve it won't drip when parked. So to sum it up, the time to be extra alert is when you first turn on the gas to start the engine after it has been parked.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 11:11 am:

Do you suppose a fire extinguisher in the cab and a little courage would have saved this pickup?

Squirrel causes vehicle fire

http://wildfiretoday.com/

"Wednesday afternoon an older couple was driving their Dodge pickup truck on US Highway 385 just south of Wind Cave National Park in South Dakota when they smelled smoke. The driver told us that it smelled like a forest fire but they could not see any nearby — until the interior of the truck filled with smoke. They pulled over and called 911 on their cell phone and then stood on the side of the road several hundred feet away with their two dogs as the truck burned, waiting for what they thought was the inevitable explosion — just like they have seen so many times in movies."

Animal Arson.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 01:10 pm:

My experience is if a fire gets started in a modern vehicle you are better off if it burns beyond repair - otherwise you have heaps of trouble later.

There are a few obvious exceptions such as it being in the garage -

Almost forgot - Make sure your insurance covers fire.


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