My radiator is marginal. If I keep the speed down to about 32 and play with the advance it does OK, any faster and it begins a slow climb to overheating.
I have flushed the system so thoroughly I think you could drain the water and drink it.
Since $1000 for a new radiator is not in the budget right now, I'm thinking of trying a water pump as an experiment.
So ..... for those of you who actually use a water pump:
- good models, vs bad models?
- which has the least problems with leaks?
- easiest to rebuild successfully ?
- your success or failure with them ?
- anyone with a good quality spare they might
want to sell?
Thanks for any advice!
Cheers
schuh
I've tried different styles and like the brand Climax or Impeller. These were the only ones that worked for me. I had a couple cars with marginal radiators and these pumps helped a lot. Rebuilding them is pretty straight forward. Replacing the shaft is usually enough, sometimes the bushings.
Bud
If the radiator does not leak a lot, Antifreeze is a possible solution. It raises the boiling point and seems to help transfer heat resulting in no boiling. It has worked for me without using a water pump. (about 80% antifreeze or more)
Cheaper than the water pump also.
I have an Atlas that I am using. Because the shaft is standard size it was not much of problem to replace it with stainless steel shaft and the bushing were off the shelf items. As far as I could tell it had been rebuilt at lest one time in the past. The photo is before I rebuilt it, can't find the photos of it now.
Bud, most water pumps are for sale because they don't work. So when you buy one it will most likely need to be rebuilt. The brass adjustable bearings wear out and are hard to replace, so I get the next size up stainless steel shaft and ream the bushing up to size. That way you don't have to make new tricky adjustable nuts. Also the larger the water pump pulley the slower it will run and water pumps can cavitate at highway speeds. If you can't find or make a larger pulley you can reduce the area of the impellor blades to reduce the speed of the water flow. As soon as you are going over ten miles an hour you should not need a water pump. But if you can't replace it now a water pump will help some.
Your radiator most likely has loose cooling fins that do not transfer the heat from the water in the tube to the fin where the passing air can remove the heat from the fin. You are attempting to take the heat from the tubes and that just will not work.
Bud I use a Bergs I got from Langs and it works fine on my TT with an old radiator. I did install a ceramic seal 10 years ago and it been great. The ceramic seal turns freely and is trouble free. I also use a very thin belt and the tension is very low. It helps make the bushing last longer in the pump and fan hub. Enjoy your T and the ice cream, Scott
A new water pump is $179 - $250 depending on who you buy it from, plus shipping.
You will also need a different fan belt. More $$.
Then you will find that the fan belt won't stay on the fan or the lower pulley, and you will need to buy a new pair of special pulleys....$$$$$$
You've now spent half the price of a new radiator.
By now the water pump is turning, you've spent a lot of time and money, and it has not fixed the problem.
Here's the best solution for your problem:
http://www.bergsradiator.com/modelt.html
If you wait five years you can bet the price will double due to the Obama induced inflation
If the pump shaft is good packings will last very well with periodic lubrication (like anything else that moves) and need little more attention than the bands.
I put what appeared to be a NOS Bergs pump on my '27 Tudor (it came with the car) and no more heating problems whatsoever......EVER.
Good pumps are on ebay all the time and even if one isn't shafts are easy to replace.
It sounds as if your heating problem is pretty marginal anyway so you don't have much to lose and everything to gain.
(I edited this before posting.....some things just aren't worth addressing.)
Bud, when I bought my '27 45 years ago it had an Atlas identical to Marks installed on it. I ran it for over 40 years, used graphite lead packing which I would only have to lube and tighten a bit every few hundred miles so I would say it was, compared to the rest of the T maintenance, rather trouble free. I had assumed that the pump was needed as it had been installed, never had a heat problem with it. After reading all of the back and forth about pumps on this forum I decided to try the Thermosyphon as was originally intended. Bought an inlet and short fan belt and can tell no difference, still doesn't run hot. The only reason I can think of that the pump was on there was it might have been the aftermarket item dejour at the time. If your radiator is marginal a pump might be needed as you have already tried the thermosyphon route. Might get you by until you can get a new radiator.
Gordon
Antifreeze does NOT increase heat transfer. In fact, it works just the opposite. Water by itself has a higher heat transfer index. The more you add to it, heat transfer capabilities go down. Antifreeze lowers the freeze point and increases the boiling point of water; that's all. Well, that and maybe some lubrication and anti-corrosion properties.
Ken is right. Antifreeze raises the boiling point giving the illusion that the car is running cooler, however, Antifreeze does not transfer heat as well as straight water so the physical temprature will be higher even though it is not boiling
Bud, I'll send you a private message. Your best water pump might be one that's free.
Bud,
I wish you'd have mentioned it when we met in FL earlier this month! While I was there I saw a couple of them laying on a shelf in my barn. I think I've still got your address. My wife is in FL now. I'll try to explain to her what they look like and where they are. I don't remember if they came off of one of my T's, or were in with batches of stuff I've picked up over the years. Don't buy one yet, I'll give you one.
Bud, if you aren't in a hurry, keep an eye on ebay. I bought a VERY good flat tube high radiator for my '25 coupe for much less than 1/2 of the price of a new one. I can't make it get hot. I bought it from a forum member that sells a lot of parts on ebay. Dave
If you find a good pump, consider also installing a thermostat. They're available from vendors to place between the head and the water outlet.
Thank you all for the much needed advice! I'll report back on the results of "the water pump experiment"
Cheers
schuh
The last T radiator I had recored at the local radiator shop was $225. But tha was about 5 years ago.
Instead of anti-freeze, put in some soluble oil and a bottle of water wetter. Unless you are in a "freeze" area.
The water soluble lubricating oil is a dark brown color in the bottle and turns milky white when dissolved in your radiator. It lubricates the bearings in the water pump. It is used on metal cutting machinery like valve grinders, lathes, and milling machines and costs about $25 a gallon. You will need about a half of a cup or four ounces when you fill the radiator. You can treat 32 radiators with your gallon. Take it to a driving event and lubricate everyone's water pumps and you will be a hero. They might even buy you your lunch. If you buy an eight ounce can of water pump lubricating fluid they will sell you a mixture that contains a little bit of the lubricant and will charge you about $8 for the little bit you get. It would cost $256 if everyone purchased their own little can of lubricant mixture. As a point of reference, they used to sell antifreeze in a gallon bottle. Now they sell radiator fluid that is already mixed, read that as diluted at twice the price. Because it is a convenience product, the sell it at a higher price than the full strength coolant that has to be diluted 50 percent. Some people are mentally challenged when it comes to diluting to a 50 percent solution and gladly pay twice as much. Let us say that antifreeze at full strength sells for $8 a gallon and the diluted fluid sells for $12. You need twice as much of the already diluted fluid and so will pay three times as much as when using full strength fluid. Another goofy thing is the windshield washer fluid. It has a soap in it to remove bugs and is an inexpensive and good product. It used to contain an anti-freezing agent and that killed the little bugs that live in the ground so they had to remove it. Now the fluid states that it protects your windshield down to 32 degrees. Duhhhhh ! So it's colored water with a little bug dissolving agent in it and will freeze in the plastic windshield washer bottle and crack it if you have purchased a do it yourself cheap blow-molded bottle. Yes it will freeze when the outside temperature drops to the freezing point. You can add some denatured alcohol to it but be sure to get a high percentage of it because the dollar stores ell you a four percent mixture and some stores sell a 60 percent mixture. Be sure your paint job can withstand alcohol because some paints dissolve with alcohol and can be ruined. When the stores sell you an easy to use product they give you less while charging your more.
This notice was posted in order to promote and further the cheapness of Model T'ing.
Ken, Bud
In spite of the negative response from Ken on my antifreeze suggestion, it worked for me.
I Have a 1910 Mother In Law that would go about 2 miles with pure water and start boiling it all out and getting very hot.
I put in about an 80% solution of antifreeze and drove the car the same 2 miles (Texas summer and temperature near 100 degrees). This time the car was not boiling and the motor meter on top of the radiator was still in the safe zone.
Do not have the answer on why the difference unless the slight increase in the boiling point of the anti-freeze made the difference.?????
I run anti-freeze the year round and do not have overheating problems.
Bud......before you go any farther have you run a bottle of radiator flushing solution through the system?
My '25 Fordor was puking like crazy despite looking very clean.
I bought a container of Prestone (I think) Super Flush as it contains sodium hydroxide (lye) where others don't.
I ran it for a while and when I drained/flushed the system the water was brownish but not terribly so.
I put an antifreeze solution in and it's so much better I can't believe it.
Even a light coating of rust in the block acts as an insulator and water will bead up on rust instead of spreading over the surfaces and contribute to overheating.
An antifreeze solution will prevent rust from reoccurring and help the engine cool as it should.
I'll be adding a bottle of Water Wetter as soon as it arrives too.
I should be there in tomorrow's mail.
Mike, that sounds painful. I hope you will go first class.
Thanks Erich, it was a typo.--------or, could it be that I omitted the "t" on the first word because subconciously I don't believe "T's" and waterpumps should go together?