Demountable lugs - is this correct?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Demountable lugs - is this correct?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 04:31 pm:

Do I have this correct? Is there just jamb pressure with the 4 lugs that holds the felloe onto the rim??

Thanks guys!

Michaellug 1lug 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 04:54 pm:

Michael,

Recommend Stop! Do not pass go! From the two photos you have posted I would guess you have the Kelsey 88 or other lose lug rim or perhaps even a non-demountable rim that is designed to be sweated onto a wooden felloe mounted onto a Hayes style felloe.

If any of those are the case you run the risk of the rims turning on the felloe (especially on the rear wheels) and the valve stem being cut and / or the rim coming off. I will post some more information soon -- but I wanted to encourage you to post a few more photos so we can better understand what we are looking at. Or if there is someone local there they can look at it and quickly determine - you are ok, not great but it will work, or not safe.

A couple of quick questions. Have you been running them that way for the past several years or have you just built those up from parts?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 05:08 pm:

Hi Hap..

Just sent you a private note, and thanks for yours and your concern.

I am just now building these wheels and wanted to make sure I have the arrangement correct before moving forward. Looks not though, eh?

Michael


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 05:28 pm:

Michael,

definitely a missmatch of parts. Don't use as is.

The "gap" in the felloe that you have put the short leg of the lug into, tells me that it (the felloe) should have a rim with fixed lugs.

You can see a wear mark on the rim where a lug has been. May be something like these but please note that there are many many similar but different versions.

Firestone
Thanks to whoever posted this photo in the first place, sorry, I didn't record who.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 05:37 pm:

Michael,
I am sure Hap will have some excellent advice for you on your rims.

Here is a past thread on identifying rims that might also assist.

Regards, John

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/135230.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 06:02 pm:

Good news -- Michael is not planning to drive the car anytime real soon, so he has time to sort it out. I sent him an e-mail and he will be sending me some photos of his wheels and rims. From my telephone conversation with him, it sounds like he has at least two different types of rims. We will let folks know what we discover -- and will post appropriate photos etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 06:27 pm:

It's hard to be sure from the pictures, but hose notches suggest to me that Michael's wheels should have Hayes rims like these. Fortunately they seem to be the most common make and relatively easy to come by.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 09:00 pm:

Michael, for the square loose lug to fit there needs to be a land pressed into the metal wheel felloe. This is a slot pressed towards the centre of the wheel. The longer leg of the loose lug rests on it. The shorter end also locates on the tyre rim. With a rim profile as you show, there should be a flat spot cut into that rolled lip for the shorter leg of the lug to engage.

Without the slot pressed into the felloe, you need rims with the fixed lugs as Steve shows in his photos.

I am not familiar with the rim you show. In my experience in Australia with Canadian sourced cars, I have never seen a rim without fixed lugs which does not have the slot/land for the loose lug to engage.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, September 23, 2012 - 10:27 pm:

1. General comment – recommend you have the valve stems perpendicular to the rim – in several of the photos the valve stem is slanted more than I would recommend.
2. As Steve Jeff pointed out above, I think there is a good chance you could run the demountable rims with the fixed lugs either the Hayes 2845B or the Ford 2845B on all your felloes/wheels and it would work out “ok.” You would need to ensure they fit on the wheel properly with the side of the rim closest to the frame mating up well to the felloe on the side closest to the frame. If there is a gap between the felloe and the rim on the side next to the frame – then I would not recommend that. Also for the one Kelsey 88 loose lug felloe that you have – you would need to add the indentations so the lugs on the 2845B rims did not prevent the rim from fitting up snug on the back side (side closes to the frame) of the felloe.

3. In an ideal world – I would recommend obtaining four of the same style felloes and 5 of the appropriate rims so a single spare would fit properly on any felloe/wheel you have. Based on other posting on the forum, I suspect you can make the fixed lug rims work on all the wheels – but you will need to double check that and if it will work then you need to obtain four more of those rims.



What I believe you currently have:
You sent the photo below saying you have two of the felloes shown below. I believe that notch would allow the Hayes style fixed lug to fit those. But I believe they are probably the Ford (produced by Firestone and Cleveland) used with type 2845D loose lug rim.



That looks similar to the Hayes style slot – but wait until you see the female cup around the valve stem in the next photo.



It has the female cup for the male valve stem throat to fit into to keep the rim from turning on the felloe. I am not sure what the 2845C style felloe looks like. I believe it would also have a locating lug around the valve stem. You can also zoom in and I believe it says SEPT 21 Lansing Mich -- WHEEL Michael – if you can tell what it says and/or send a couple of more photos I may be able to figure out what it says.
If it is for the 2845D rim then it would be like the Firestone produced 2845D that Royce posted at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/92314.html?1242971377 Thank you Royce for the photos and the patience with us as we learn new things.







Note that UNLIKE the Kelsey 88 loose lug – the 2845D has a recess and used the standard demountable lug nut with the chamfered / flared edge rather than the flat head nut that the Kelsey 88 uses.

Steve Shelton in that same thread also posted some photos of his Firestone 2845D rims and the felloes he put them on. Below is another photo he sent to me showing the throat around the valve stem:



the felloe with the cup is the one to look at -- the other one is a Hayes style felloe. Both have the notches at the lug areas.



Note the 2845D with the cup for the valve stem – that felloe looks like two of your felloes. And for some of us, such as me – that was the fist time I had ever seen that arrangement and I had a hard time accepting that it was true. Sort of like when they fist invented the airplane – what do you mean it can fly? But Ford used that style for a couple of years in the early 1920s – at least at some of the Branch Plants.
That felloe “IF” it is for the 2845D rim would take the 2845D rim that is shown below second from the front (also the back two – but on those you do not see the throat around the valve stem – but it is there). Thank you Steve Shelton of the photo.



What I still do not know is what felloe or felloes does the 2845C that has the rolled edge look like? And what does the lug for that rim look like?
It looks like you have one of those style rims but you may or may not have a felloe for that style rim. Also – while I do not know what the lug looks like for that rim – it is NOT the Kelsey 88 lug that you show in your photo on your first posting.



(Above is the photo Michael called his type A rim – which I am fairly certain is a 2845C based on the valve stem lug and the rolled bead.)

You two other felloes appear to be Kelsey 88 loose lug felloes as the photo you sent below:



If you look to the right of the NO you may see 88. But the flanges on both sides of the felloe combined with the notch/ledge for the Kelsey 88 clamp to press up against shown in your photo below clearly indicate it is a Kelsey 88 style felloe:



Note the ledge/notch for the Kelsey 88 lug to press against on the felloe. Also note that Kelsey 88 felloe above takes the Kelsey 88 rim that you show below:



That lug “U” shaped area fits over the lug bolt and prevents the rim from moving. The ledge on the rim is what the Kelsey 88 clamp fits against. That is the correct rim, clamp, and felloe for that set up.

Your third type rim has the four fixed lugs and is probably a 2845B that was produced by Kelsey for Ford starting around Mar 1924 see: the Mar 7, 1924 letter at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels that says all the wheel makers will begin making the fixed lug rim and wheel to include Kelsey. In your case I believe the “K” on the lug indicates Kelsey. But I have not found positive documentation on that yet. So if someone knows one way or the other – please let us know. Note the rim has four of these.



So Michael, you have some choices on how you would like to proceed. Checking the fit of the 2845B style fixed lug may reveal it will work on all four felloes (or maybe that it won’t). “IF” it did then obtaining four more of those would work. You could also have different felloes and rims – but then you will need more spare rims and tires. Don’t get frustrated – I’m sure you will be able to swap things around and come up with a workable set of demountables for you car.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, September 24, 2012 - 01:54 am:

Hap, as a matter of interest, the felloes shown with the outside edge vertical rather than turned in, only came to us in Australia on the 21" wooden wheels on the 1926 cars. These, of course, came with split rims with fixed lugs.

The majority of our 23" demountables were of the loose lug variety as shown in your second and third last photos. These felloes were designed so that the loose lug forced the rim to bind on the outside edge of the felloe. These felloes are about 1/8" greater in diameter than the fixed lug type felloes we got on our 25 models.

The 25 Ts here came with the fixed lug felloes, which rely on the rim binding on the inside edge of the felloe, the fixed lug standing a little off the outside face of the felloe. These felloes are 1/8" smaller in diameter than the loose lug type. I believe this is what was standard in the US on most cars.

Until recently, I had believed that the Kelsey 88 rims had the solid land around the inside of the rim like the 2845D shown in your diagrams. The short leg on the square loose lug engaged with that solid land. Then I turned up a clearly branded Kelsey 88 rim with the rolled in land like the 2845C, with the slotted relief to accept the loose lug. The rolled in land in this Kelsey rim was sharper than that I was accustomed to on other brand rims, which have the same wider rolled land as found in our Hayes fixed lug rims.

The rolled land rims, when machined to accept a loose lug fitment, are opened up at that point and will admit water through the slot created. This leads to more rapid rusting of the rims from the inside. Perhaps Kelsey realised this, and developed the solid land on the inside of the rim to alleviate the rust problem, making the one rim I found, an early example before this change.

The plot thickens.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, September 24, 2012 - 08:58 am:

For Allan,

Thank you so much for your comments. We (Steve Shelton and me) are working to capture the Canadian variations also.

Note I often learn or relearn something when I review things. Note that the Kelsey rim is part number 2845 and all the other rims have a suffix added "A", "B" [two version the Hayes and Ford but interchangable and thus same part number but different maker (although the Ford 2845B could easily have been made to Ford specs by an outside supplier), "C", or "D". That was a normal method Ford used in his price list of parts manuals to designate new items that were different enough from the old item to need a suffix. That would be an indicator that Kelsey was indeed the first supplier (or at least the first one the contract was signed with) to supply the demountable rims. Bruce (RIP) stated that Kelsey was a major supplier the first year Ford offered the demountable rims -- and that the rims they used the first year were slightly different form the later Kelsey rims (ref page 282 Bruce's book).

For Michael,

Steve Shelton actually posted the proper type of loose lug part number 2846C used with the 2845C rim that you have. That is copied from our rim guide I have been delaying him from publishing (I would still like to find out the difference if anything between the felloes for the 2845C rims and the 2845D rims.) The nut is integral to the lug and the lug has a radius to accept the round face of the rim. Note also that the lug fits into the notch on the felloe. This is the lug & rim & felloe set up that is unique to the 2845C rim.



A few that I do not remember where they came from perhaps e-bay? (If you know who posted them, please let me know and I will add that to my notes so I can say thank you next time we use them.)



From the 1926 price list of parts below is shown the 2846C illustration (caution -- the folks printing the Price List of Parts often did not know what the parts were -- but they were printers. Occasionally they have the wrong part shown or the labels wrong. In this case I think they are correct.)



So if you obtained 4 of those loose lugs you probably could properly mount the 2845C rim on the felloe with the cup around the vale stem. But you would need to check to make sure it mated / snugged up properly against the inside portion of the felloe.

Note if anyone has some information on the differences if any between the felloe that was used with the 2845C and the 2845D rims, please let us know. Ford often made parts backwards compatible or required his suppliers to do the same. So it is possible that it is the same felloe or at least a compatible felloe. But I would like to confirm that.

Safety item / question for Michael,

The Kelsey felloes (you have two of them) tend to use slightly longer spokes that the Hayes felloes (I do not believe you have any of those). I do not know if the felloes for the 2845C as well as the 2845D rims have the same size spokes as the Hayes or the Kelsey or neither of those. Does anyone else know how those spokes compare to the others? Snyder’s and other vendors list one length for most Ford wheels see: http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/4083 and a spoke that is approximately 1/32 inch longer see: http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/5252 If you respoked the wheels – did you use the longer version for the Kelsey wheels and the shorter version for the other wheels? [Note to make things more complex – some of the other (Hayes – I think but Peter would know for sure) wheels in some locations apparently used a slightly different thickness in the felloe. From: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/92314.html?1242971377
+++++++++++ reposted ++++++++++
By peter kable on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 11:12 pm:
Probably should mention the following also

There are different felloe thicknesses. One is wider making the spokes shorter and placing the bolt holes closer together The distance between the holes for the rims is reduced so if you have the wrong rims the lugs don't line up with the bolts
[Illustration not included here – but is with the original posting]
A is the thin earlier one B is the later wider one this puts the holes at a differnt dia from the other. So when you miss match the bolts either are too close to the outer edge of the hole or too close to the inner edge (as in dia C) making it hard to get the tapered nuts to bind equally around the countersink of the fixed lugs hole
+++++++++++++++++++++ end reposting ++++++++++

For Michael again – If you ordered one type of spoke length – there is a good chance that two of your wheels are either too loose or too tight. If you sent the wheels out for rebuilding the experienced wheelwrights fit the spokes to the hub and felloes and would have the correct length.

Again thank you all for helping us better document the different wheels, felloes, lugs, lug nuts, and rims for the demountable Model Ts.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Monday, September 24, 2012 - 12:29 pm:

Thanks everyone for helping...

Hap...I rebuilt the wheels myself. However, I sent a sample of each spoke to the wheelwright, and he duplicated them for me. It turns out, there was a difference, but just in the width of the tennon. One was 1/2 inch, the other 5/8 inch.

It may be that the 2845B rim (the one with the four fixed lugs) is the 'universal recipient'). At least for my two types of felloes.

I do have a little concern that the two types of felloes snug up differently to the fixed lugs.

I have attached a series of photos indicating where I have what I call the type a felloe (the one with no cup - appears to be a Kelsey 88 style - as there is an 8 following the NO 30 in the photo of mine you posted above) mounted in the rim with 4 fixed lugs – the 2845B

I also indicate what I call the Type B felloe mounted to the same rim (2845B).

Can we confirm that what I am calling a type A felloe is a Kelsey 88?

What is the actual name for what I am calling the type b felloe? The writing on this felloe ( with the cup) says, under magnification, 30 31/2 Sept 21 Lansing Mich (some word I cannot make out) wheel Corp Motor.

Would you guys mind giving "safe" or "unsafe" opinions, if either are mounted to the 2845B rim?

Thank you,
Michael
photo 12345


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Monday, September 24, 2012 - 09:47 pm:

I know these are the wrong type of nuts for these
rims. The correct ones are on the way...

Michael


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, September 24, 2012 - 10:19 pm:

Michael, from my experience in Australia, your type A felloe is the type we got on our 1925 cars which had fixed lug rims as you show.

Your type B felloe with the slot depressed into it is the correct felloe for that square loose lug you showed early on in this thread. The longer leg on the lug engages on that depressed slot. The shorter leg engages in a slot in the rim, if the rim has a rolled in bead around the inside. On some rims the bead around the inside is a solid land and the short leg on the lug engages directly on this land.

Further, the felloe with the depressed slot, your type B, is the little larger diameter felloe Hap mentioned. With the correct rim fitted, the rim will bind on the outside edge of the felloe, rather than the inside edge like the fixed lug rims.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, September 24, 2012 - 11:20 pm:

Michael,

The felloe you called type “A” had the cup for the male valve stem throat on the rim to fit into. Therefore it is NOT a Hayes felloe. However, it does have the slot that allows the Hayes fixed lug or the 2846C loose lug to fit and not bind before the rim fits snug against the inside flared edge of the felloe. Ford did not list the felloe as a part. Note the felloe with that same style female throat was also used with the 2845D style rims and a different clamp. For that set up – the cut out was still present but did not seem to be needed. See again the photos from Royce showing that felloe with the proper clamp and 2845D rim shown earlier in this thread. Note the Ford owner could order a wheel but not just the felloe (nor the spokes from the Ford Price List of Parts). As mentioned previously I do NOT know if the wheel/felloe of the Ford wheels (made for Ford by Firestone and Cleveland) using the rolled bead type rim part number 2846C were or were not the same design/function. I suspect there are – but I am guessing. It would be nice if we could verify that with some data. For now you can refer to them as the Ford felloe produced by Firestone and Cleveland for the loose lug rims 2845C or 2845D. [Again – we think but do not know they are the same felloe.]
As Allan shared in your photos your Type B felloe is a Kelsey 88 felloe. Unfortunately I do not think you have any Kelsey 88 Rims. You do have what appears to be the Kelsey 88 loose lugs.

For the safe fitting of the rims (no matter which one you use) we need to see how the rim snugs up to the inside flange of the felloe. I.e. take the photo so the head of the lug bolts show instead of the side where the lug nuts show. If you had a Kelsey rim to mount on the Kelsey felloe (which I did not see in the photos I reviewed), it would actually make contact on both the outside and inside flanges of the felloe as shown below: [Allan – please note that at least in this drawing from the Ford Service Bulletin – the Kelsey rim fits snug against both the inside and outside flange of the felloe. Or at least that is how I am seeing the drawing.]



But for the Hayes 2845B and Ford 2845B (produced by outside supplier also) only the inside flange of the felloe fits snug inside the rim. That is what is carrying the weight of the car. The lugs are there to help a little but primarily keep the rim from rotating and to keep it pressed snug against the felloe.

I hope that makes sense.

Also, if you have the opportunity – please compare one of the Kelsey felloe spokes with the spokes from the other style felloe. The Kelsey should be approximately 1/32 inch longer according to what Snyder’s catalog says. That might be hard to tell – but I am still concerned that if your spokes are the same length – there is a chance that two of your wheels are either too tight or too loose. Again, it may be fine and perhaps all the loose lug felloes may have had the same length spokes. They are not listed in the Price List of Parts so I cannot find information on them there.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 12:59 am:

Hap, the drawing is a little confusing to me. Until My recent find of a Kelsey 88 rim with a rolled in groove around the base of the rim, I had only seen Kelsey rims with a flat base clear across the rim. The drawing shows the rolled in groove like the one in my recent find, but it shows a second smaller groove which meets the inside edge of the felloe. I have never seen such a rim.

It is time I goy a camera out to show you what we have to work with. Thank you for your encouragement.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 01:04 am:

Hap, the moment I pressed the button I realised I had not commented on the lug shown in the drawing. It is not the square lug with which I am familiar, and was shown at the beginning of this thread. Perhaps using that rim with the double groove and that type of loose lug was a combination which meant the rim did engage on both sides of the felloe.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 07:43 am:

Allan,

The lug nut is captured / integral to the lug in that style. I believe that lug was used for a short while and then replaced with the much more common Kelsey 88 clamp and separate flat lug nut (both of which Michael has but again he does not have the Kelsey 88 rim).

It is always possible that Kelsey of Canada produced a slightly different wheel/felloe for Ford of Canada. Actually we are fairly certain they did have some differences. The ends of the spokes that fit against the hub are tapered so the assemble easier on some of the Canadian Kelsey wheels (and perhaps on some USA but I have not yet run across them in the USA).

There is always more to discover. Thank you for your help.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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