So I'm finding that it doesn't take much to get lots of (usually differing) opinions on something here simply by throwing out a statement or question. 'Cause as we all know, opinions, like other things, are something everyone has.
That said, I'd like to see what information I could glean regarding brakes. I'm sure my '24 Roadster had brakes at some point, but calling the pedal on the right a "brake" pedal might be somewhat of a misnomer. I prefer to call it the "make the car slow down" pedal.
I understand the principle of how the band works, and have tightened it a few times, always trying not to get it too tight while driving. It works great until I've used it about a dozen times. Then the pedal is to the metal (or wood, rather), and the rubber continues to roll down the road. Is it simply that the bands are too worn or stretched to work properly?
No real crisis until you come to a stop sign or a pair of brake lights glaring at you from the car ahead. I'm learning there is a great deal of estimating the required stopping time for a Model T. The rear brakes have certainly pitched in and done their part, but I suspect they need some attention as well. And I wouldn't think I should be relying on the brake lever for stopping during casual driving.
So.... what can you guys tell me about my situation? I gladly welcome your comments and opinions. Come on, I know you've got one!....
Trey,
Your brakes shouldn't be deteriorating that quickly. Do you know what type of band material you have (Kevlar, wood, woven lining)? Is it possible you have a cracked/broken drum?
Are you able to stop well with the emergency brake (should be if they are adjusted equally, have lining instead of steel shoe, and aren't oily/greasy from leaking seals)?
If the brakes are ok (mechanically), are you anticipating your stops soon enough, and using the engine to help slow before braking?
I often use both the throttle and spark levers to slow before using the transmission brake.
Rob
I agree with Rob. You shouldn't have to adjust the transmission brake that often. Something's wrong with it.
In my opinion there's nothing wrong with using the hand brake to help out the foot brake. Rear brake linings are easier to replace than transmission band linings. But before using any brakes at all it's best to throttle down and do most of the braking with the engine. You need to plan your stops more with a T than you do with a modern car.
Rob,
Thanks for the reply. The brakes are woven lining, and I'm not really sure of their age. Possible cracked drum? Hmmm... I suppose, but I'm not suspecting that.
The emergency brakes aren't that great either, and I haven't taken them apart yet to check things out.
I'm still new to driving a T, so still learning to coordinate all my appendages along with my car's! Of course, when your brakes don't really stop your car, it's kinda hard to anticipate just how long it's gonna take you to actually stop!
Any other suggestion on adjusting the bands, assuming the drum is ok?
BTW, looked at your profile. Nice looking family, particularly the eldest member! ;)
Sounds to me like Trey has a cracked transmission brake drum.
How do you tell if a drum is cracked? Is there some way to look at it and tell? It seems, unless the drum is cracked around the periphery its going to be hard to tell if it's cracked? And normally don't the drums start to crack around the web on the inside of the drums first? And if the drum is cracked wouldn't it have to be cracked pretty bad in order for the brakes to quit working? He's been tightening the bands and hasn't noticed a broken or cracked drum and after tightening the bands he says they work for a while and then start to fail. I'm not saying the drums are or aren't broken but without taking the transmission apart how would he be able to tell if the drum is cracked? I'm interested because if there is a way of telling the drums are cracked in my '26 sedan without tearing it down to find out I could order up some good drums ahead of time and not be looking around after I get it apart. I could even have them balanced too.
I guess my first question should be; How do you tell if a drum is cracked without taking the transmission apart first? I have a flexible bore scope with approx. 1/2 inch tip. What's your opinion for looking for a cracked drum with it with the transmission assembled?
Is there a chance Trey has new bands that need to have some "stretch" adjusted out of them? Or is it more of a chance his bands are coming apart and it's time to change them before he has a plugged oil line? Perhaps pulling the magneto post and looking at the tip for "lint" would be a good place to start.
I had a similar problem with a T I own. The previous owner had replaced the special washer that goes on the brake shaft with a regular washer, the result was a loosening of the brake band after only a few miles. The Ford brake band washer and nut are special with a hump on the washer to prevent the nut from becoming loose. This could also happen if the washer is reversed.
Trey
I sometimes use both in too a little lever and a little pedal, just as you would if you were stopping a motorcycle.... A little front brake and a little rear brake.
It depends greatly on the grade I'm going down or worst case Sanrio, when some nut pulls out in front of you and your chugging along at 35-40 mph. I always use both then for sure.
I've only been driving my T's for a little over a year but I'm finding preparing to stop long before stopping is the best medicine. I've also been known to use my park brake as well as my transmission brake too. But not a lot. Otherwise I start stopping way sooner than I would with my F150. And if I had an emergency stop, which hasn't happened yet, (knock on wood) I wouldn't hesitate jumping on all 3 pedals to keep from smashing into something. I should add, I seldom drive my T's over 35 mph. I know the touring will run 45 mph but I only did it once and won't do it again. Those old wood spokes scare me too much to drive it too fast.
All this still doesn't cover the reason for Trey's fading brakes over time. And the best idea I've heard so far is the reversed band washer as Gerald described. If not that then perhaps the nut is on the wrong way. I'm still not buying the broken drum theory yet. The only other thing I'll buy into is badly worn bands. So watch now, Trey will find the drums cracked and I'll be sitting her with egg on my face.
Trey,
If you "brake" using the reverse or low pedal (gently) is it similar to gently applying the brake? If the brake feel is "squishy" then I'd suspect a cracked drum. Also, if you push each pedal with the inspection cover off, I'd think you might see the brake band compressing more than the other if the drum is cracked and "giving".
Good luck,
Rob
Trey,
You said "woven lining". In plain English that means "not wood" or "maybe cotton and maybe Kevlar". If it is Kevlar than a cracked drum is high on the list of possibilities.
I would first start by looking inside the tranny between the ends of the brake band. Have someone turn the engine by hand as you inspect. You can often spot a crack running across the face of the drum... find a crack and you are pulling the engine out.
Since you said "not wood", if it were my car I would be pulling off the tranny cover to make installation of new wooden liners easier, that will also make tranny inspection and magneto, magnet, and triple gear inspection much easier. It will also give you a good look at the band springs, washers, nuts.
Mike doesn't like the wooden wheels, inspect yours. If they are sound and tight they are plenty strong for you to run on them , even if you pull 50-55 MPH... but don't do that until you have dealt with your brakes. Now would also be a good time to consider auxilliary brakes, not manditory but nice... after that soccer mom cuts you off and stomps on HER brakes it is too late to add more brakes onto your T!
IMHO, TH
Rob, good point. However how long would a cracked drum that was "giving" last without literally exploding. They're made out of some pretty flimsy cast material down in that web area. But I'm willing to consider your idea as definitely legitimate. Taking the top cover off the transmission and watching the drum while he stepped on the brake is a great idea. I'm going to check it out tomorrow on my '26. I'll try to let you know what I see, if anything.
Trey,
Couple of thoughts:
1. Do you brake steadily, or do you brake a bit, let off and then brake some more, repeating the two steps? The "off" interval is to allow some oil to get on the band and cool it.
2. Do you have lined brake shoes in the rear wheels or the standard solid cast iron shoes?
The reverse pedal, if used as a brake, will cause rapid wear of the triple gears and bushings. It can be used as a brake pedal in an emergency but should not be used as such regularly.
Model T brakes are not too good. You should drive the car as if there are no brakes when possible so that the foot brake is in good shape for a panic stop. Give cars in front of you lots of room. Back off the throttle long before stop signs.
Slow down, the car was designed 103+ years ago.
Please understand it's not that I don't like wooden spokes, I've got wood on both my cars and they're in excellent shape. I actually sold my steel spoked wheels for my sedan and kept my wood spokes on. But there's something about the opportunity of putting a lot of side stress on them that gives me pause. I also remember the fatal accident by Rochester MN last summer and the vision of those broken wooden spoked wheels has stuck in my mind. And I also believe if you drive your Model T as fast as it can go, where ever you go, you're missing out on the pleasure of the cruise. 30 to 35 is good enough for me. I guess if you want to go 50 to 55 get a Model A and drop an 85 horse flathead in it. And yes I know a lot of guys are interested in pushing the T's to their limits and seeing if they can keep building those old four bangers to really get up and run. Heck, one of my favorite cars out there is Clayton Paddison's roadster/speedster. He drove that to the salt and had a lot of fun (I was envious). But my T's are for easy touring and when I do want to go over 35 mph I'll build a speedster. There's still the fact that if you're going to run what Henry put on these old Fords for brakes then learn to drive within the limits of their design. The lined shoes on the rear are great. I've got them on my touring and I use them when parked. And so far my kevlar bands seem to do pretty good. But because of my driving style I use my transmission brakes alone and they seem to do just fine.
Sounds like a segment of your lining has broken off the brake band.
I think Gerald has the answer, wrong washer or no washer. If in fact your lining is shredded, I would bet your oil pipe funnel is stopped up also and will soon cause some bearing failure.
Mr. Gwaltney, FWIW, IMO (I'm getting good at this, been reading my grand kids emails to me) I think you need to accept that T's don't have much in the way of brakes. I have been driving them all my driving life, and have never felt comfortable with them, part of our younger day driving technique was heading for the bar ditch and trying to go around the vehicle that stopped in front of you. We all marveled at the first hydraulics we had any dealings with, and they were light years ahead of anything Ford had in the way of brakes, T, A, or any of the 30's. I have completely rebuilt any number of mechanical brake systems, even replacing the cables on those that had them, and still never had what I called good brakes. Not all hydraulics are that good either, and now I am talking Willys and Jeep brakes, almost as bad as a T. If you are going to drive your T, and I hope you do, you just need to drive like I do, as if you don't have any brakes, and give serious thought to getting one of the hydraulic conversions, they are the greatest thing since a pocket on a shirt, My 2 cents.
Here are several things to consider:
The Model T brake was intended to stop a car going around 20-30 MPH. It does a pretty good job on level ground with not much traffic. Remember that in the day, most cars didn't stop as fast as today, they were also much slower than today, and the pedestrians and other motorists and horsemen knew that and so kept their distance. Today, others think we can stop like a modern car, and so they step right out or pull right in front of us.
With the above in mind, I would recommend auxiliary brakes at least on the rear wheels. If you install on the front wheels too, you will need to beef up the suspension to keep you from getting negative castor and losing the steering. I find Rocky Mountain Brakes to be very good when the T is driven at reasonable speed with good following distance and the brakes are correctly adjusted.
Consider all the above posts, but don't use reverse for a brake unless all else fails. The reverse drum is weak and can be easily cracked.
You asked how to tell if the drum is cracked. When you take off the transmission inspection plate, with both rear wheels on jack stands put the car in high gear and with ignition OFF, have someone turn over the crank as you look between the ears of the brake band. If you find a crack across the drum which would tend to shred the lining, your drum needs replacement. If it is shredding the lining, you will also find much lint around the transmission. You can't see cracks on the web, but the brake drum is also connected to the clutch, and if the drum were cracked on the web, you would also have trouble with the high speed clutch.
There are also some other things to be considered. One is the washer as posted above. The correct washer should have a tab which fits into a groove in the shaft, and also have an impression which fits into a groove in the nut so that the nut won't back off when you apply the brake.
Another thing to observe is the cam on the pedal shaft and bolted onto the side of the transmission. When you depress the pedal, the shaft should move noticeably to the left as it is depressed which in turn will clamp tightly the ears of the band around the drum. If it is worn, movement of the pedal won't completely compress the band. This same problem can also be caused by the pedal being bent forward after many years of pushing. To fix that, you will need to bend it back to the point that the cam will begin to operate as soon as you begin to press the pedal.
The next thing to check is whether the lining itself is worn out. If it is worn out, all the adjustment will be taken up, and you will still not get any brakes.
If there is a local club in your area, try to find someone familiar with Model T brakes to take a look at it for you. Sometimes two sets of eyes are better than one.
Good luck, be safe.
Norm
Trey
The crack across the brake drum sounds like the most likely, but you should be seeing a lot of lint as a crack shaves pieces off the brake lining. (been there, done that)
There is a cam at the base of the brake pedal that starts moving the brake pedal outward as soon as you start to push it. If this cam is badly worn, the pedal may go half way toward the floor or more before it starts to engage the brake lining. This means that you have very little adjustment and could explain your problem.
There is two parts to this cam, half is part of the base of the pedal and the other part is bolted to the transmission cover. Both parts need to have minimum wear. You can look and see if there is a lot of brake pedal travel before it starts engaging the band. You can compare the brake to the reverse. Reverse usually has little wear and it is how a good cam should operate.
Grady,
Good to see you in the mix. Great to hear your words of wisdom , thanks for contributing (for newer members, Grady has a lot of experience, and was "missing" from the forum for some time).
And now back to the thread.....
I didn't read through all of the responses, but I had a similar experience and it boiled down to a rounded out washer. You might want to check the washer and nut and see if one or both are the culprits.
I didn't read through all of the responses, so this might have already been mentioned. I had a similar experience and it boiled down to a rounded out washer. You might want to check the washer and nut and see if one or both are the culprits.
Sorry to post twice - my computer said that there was an 'error," so I posted again.