Preparing for 5 month winter storage

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Preparing for 5 month winter storage
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ian Dean on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 11:04 am:

I have to lay up the "T" for 5 months this winter while I go back to England. I ask whether it is better to drain the cooling system down, or leave it with a strong antifreeze mixture? Also having blocked up all the wheels to protect the tyres, should I deflate them? I assume a spoonful of oil in each sparking plug hole, and change the engine oil in the Spring.
Hand brake left off. Are there any other precautions I should take, this is my first winter lay up. The battery will go on a timed charger to give a one-hour boost each week.

Advice would be appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 11:16 am:

I leave antifreeze in for the rust benefits and I reduce the tire pressure to 10 pounds. The hand brake should be forward in the high gear position. If possible have someone crank the motor though at least once a month but a spoon full of oil worked in when applied should be enough for 5 months. I leave the plugs finger tight and also put bounce brand dryer sheets around the interior to repel rodents and put a piece of duct tape over the tail pipe opening and the carburetor air intake for the same reason.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Deckman, Ogden Utah on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 11:18 am:

I personnally drain mine, been told not to.

Check the battery for a good acid to water mix.

If you can bring the battery in a heated area.

I do not deflate my tyres, but put my T on jacks.

I see here that the best time to change oil is now not in the spring. (I do it in the spring)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Deckman, Ogden Utah on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 11:19 am:

I like the 10lb tyre thing, I think I will do that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Deckman, Ogden Utah on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 11:20 am:

Why am I spelling tire like tyre? lol


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 11:20 am:

Ian you left out what I consider to be the most important thing: drain the fuel. Both tank and carb. Believe me if it runs now it'll start with fresh gas when you're ready to go. As to the cooling system: even if you drain it there will still be residual water in there. Since the system is escentially open to atmosphere this will promote rust. I'd recommend filling with a good anti freeze over "dry" any day. Leave the tires full. In fact make sure the correct pressure is in them. I don't consider oiling the cylinders as being necessary. That's a closed system. They sit forever and start up with no further wear/damage to internal parts.Leave the plugs in. I leave that to you however. Wheels off the floor is OK too. Top up if you have the head room and some anti rodent stuff wouldn't hurt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 11:31 am:

Good point about the battery. Forgot that one myself. Out of the car & properly stored. Val's tail pipe idea is excellent. I'll never forget the mess when I first started the '23. It was tail into the garage. Hadn't run in 12 years. The stuff that came out of that pipe and went all over the bench and every thing else was amazing! A list of what you did to store it might help too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 11:33 am:

I agree with Charlie, draining all the gas out is the most important thing. I drain everything and run all all the gas out of the carburetor and have let engines set for years. Just a matter of adding gas and your good to go.

Depending on where it is stored and if it is subject to moisture condensation rust protection measure may be needed.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 12:21 pm:

5 months is a short time but I agree with most of the comments:

1. Drain the gas - or use Stabil
2. Air in the tires with the car on jack stands
3. A bit of oil in each cylinder - turn it over with the crank to spread it around
4. I would leave the antifreeze in the radiator
5. Tape over the exhaust and carb inlet (good idea)
6. Dryer sheet, moth balls, or something to keep the rodents away
7. Battery out of the car, on a wooden plank, and a battery tender.
8. Hand brake forward
9. If it is a closed vehicle (coupe, sedan, etc.) I would open a window or two about 1/2 inch to promote air movement.
10. There has to a number 10 -- I know since your in France remove the old wine bottles! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 12:35 pm:

#10. Remove collision insurance coverage and keep fire and theft coverage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 12:47 pm:

#10: put the stabil in a low pan under the car for the rodents to drink and drain the gas. (LOL again). I guess you want the clutch in the off position as they seem to stick on occasion when left engaged for a long period. Crap shoot but worth a shot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 11:38 pm:

I started using StarTron instead of Stabil because the chemistry guru at my local antique car club insisted it was the better product.

I've added it to my Model T's fuel tank at the beginning of the past two winters and after four or five months of solid inactivity, the engine starts right up and runs great. Not having ever used Stabil, I can't make comparisons, but I can tell you that StarTron works as advertised and then some.

For what it's worth, here's the StarTron website.

http://mystarbrite.com/startron/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Stinchcomb, Trumbull, CT on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 06:38 am:

Old tennis balls cut to fit work great for covering openings like exhaust and carb intakes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 07:16 am:

Why would you want a wooden plank under the battery? What's the point? Batteries don't like to be discharged, and they don't like cold weather. The best place for a battery is in a dark basement where it can be charged every thirty days or so. Right on the concrete floor would be best. If you must put something under it a piece of garbage bag would protect a parquet floor or carpeting.

For sure drain the gas and be sure the anti freeze is capable of withstanding the expected low temperature?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 07:55 am:

When I was in the military well over 40 years ago we would really catch it from the motor pool sarge if we set a battery on the concrete. We were always told to put it on a board. But that was many years ago. However my dad always told me the same thing. Now I've heard many times that it no longer ruins a battery to set them on the concrete. But I still put them on top of a piece of 2X6 plank in my heated garage and keep a battery tender on it. I live in Northern Minnesota and have seen many, many winters of -20 degrees fahrenheit (sp) and have never had a battery that didn't last at least 5 years. I've left fuel in the tanks through the winters and have never had a problem with bad fuel though a little stabil probably wouldn't hurt. There's no way I'd drain the radiator of antifreeze. Taking the tires down to 10 lbs and putting the car on jack stands is a good idea. However I leave mine on 4 dollies because I have to move it into a tight area in my shed. Dryer sheets or mothballs work good. I've never had anything build a nest in a tailpipe but if you're paranoid it's your choice. You know what could happen in the area where you live. Protect against it. If you need to plug your exhaust because of a possible rodent problem then I say go for it. One thing I've always done is make sure no cover ties or anything a mouse could climb was hanging down that a rodent could climb. Don't make it easy for the rodent to get at your car. It's a good idea to do more than you have too. It'll only take another hour or so to protect your car. If your going to put oil in your spark plug holes than you might as well put it in and give the crank a couple spins to make sure the oil is on the cylinder walls. That way you at least start with a coating that will protect them. I've never put oil in a plug hole for that short of a time but again it's your choice. Always err on the safe side. You can't do too much and it won't take you too long to get her out in the spring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 07:55 am:

Royce ..
Battery on concrete floor = bad?
My now passed dad, had this belief as well .. when he pulled the batteries from things that won't be running over the winter, here in Michigan, he would lug them to the basement, and dutifully set them on a piece of 2x10. It always worked ... at least bringing the batteries in from an unheated area. I found the last battery that was purchased new for the "T", not in the basement. He was able to get it pulled from the car, but just set on a shelf in the shed, next to the car. When I went to move the T out, I found it .. with the characteristic 'bloat' from freeze.

So, yes .. the notion is still hanging around from a now, outdated conception:

The following is from a quick google search:
(http://www.thebatteryterminal.com/TechTalk_Batteries_on_Concrete.htm)

Fact or Fiction
Well, is it true? Will a battery be damaged or discharged by letting it sit on concrete? NO!
Why then do so many people believe that concrete is a battery enemy? Years ago, batteries could have been electrically discharged by sitting on a concrete floor. My dad, for instance, owned an automotive shop for many years. In fact, I grew up on a creeper. My dad reminded me time after time, "Set that battery on wood! I know batteries discharge on concrete because I’ve witnessed it!" And he was right at that time.
Historical Basis
You see, the myth that concrete drains batteries does have some historical basis. Many, many years ago, wooden battery cases encased a glass jar with the battery inside. Any moisture on the floor could cause the wood to swell and possibly fracture the glass, causing it to leak. Later came the introduction of the hard rubber cases, which were somewhat porous and had a high-carbon content. An electrical current could be conducted through this container if the moist concrete floor permitted the current to find an electrical ground. The wise advice of the old days to "keep batteries off concrete" has been passed down to us today, but it no longer applies because of the advanced technology of today’s batteries. "



Moral of the story .. bring your battery in from freezing, for safekeeping ... on wood, or not. A fully charged good battery should be fine .. but why take the chance?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 09:11 am:

Thanks Dennis. I'm still going to set my batteries on wood. Mostly because I'm old. And stubborn. And opinionated. And... Well, because it's my battery and I'll do with it whatever I please.

Boy I seem belligerent this morning. Sorry about that,:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 10:27 am:

I believe that been engineered out of batteries. It's not just an old wives tale and I think it used to happen to older batts. (damp floor creates a circuit resulting in slow discharge). In any case, if you must, some sort of insulating type material should be used under it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 10:44 am:

I'm curious about the reasons behind recommendations to reduce tire pressure to 10 psi for longer-term storage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ian Dean on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 12:19 pm:

Thank you everybody for the advice, I will now be happier leaving the car here in France for the winter. Sorry if we Brits spell "tires" as "tyres" but you get the meaning! Here in France they are "pneus" !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 01:03 pm:

This is what I understand about leaving an automotive battery on concrete for a long time.


"According to a forensic chemist leaving a battery sitting on concrete will eventually ruin it. Here is how he explained the phenomenon.

Although the rubber or plastic battery case is liquid tight, and the liquid cannot penetrate it, components of the electrolyte molecules CAN migrate through the case, and penetrate into the concrete. Then, changes in the concrete release compounds which can also migrate upwards through the battery case, into the electrolyte. It is these compounds which contaminate and degrade the electrolyte, and eventually contaminate the lead plates in the battery. This is a long, slow process and will not be great enough to damage a battery during a storage period of a few weeks. Storage periods of a couple of months, while not destroying the battery, will none the less degrade the battery's power output somewhat, and can shorten it's lifespan. Long storage periods, even if the battery is kept charged, will eventually lead to premature failure."

If I leave a battery on concrete for a long time and then pick it up there are signs that something happened under it. The concrete is usually discolored and sometimes it is damp. I guess it has to do with diffusion of elements such as calcium from the concrete and sulfur from the sulfuric acid in the battery - etc.

Therefore I take the cautious route and place it on a board.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 06:32 pm:

Actually that is nonsense Fred. It's an old wives tale, made stronger by knuckleheads in the military it seems. There's a lot of that going on in the military, and if you are in the military of course do what sarge says regardless of right or wrong.

You can store a battery on the floor forever, and it will last as long there as it would on a wooden shelf, or any other shelf.

As I said, best battery life is insured if you can keep it charged and away from extreme temperatures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 07:35 pm:

Come Winter, it is nice to live in the South.
About Turkey Day, I get out my antifreeze tester and a good supply of antifreeze. All model T's and anything with a radiator is tested and brought up to a possible winter freeze. (10 degrees or lower)
On warm days I try to rotate cars driving one on a nice day and another the next nice day.
The down side of living in the South is all those days with temperatures near 100 degrees or over.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick, Sandy Creek, NY on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 07:47 pm:

Seems the cold concrete floor wouldn't help much either. I think I'll stick to the block of wood too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 09:24 pm:

winterhome


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 09:33 pm:

Mike ... Me too ... 'cuz my Pa, said to! It's OK if it isn't necessary.

On the battery draining on concrete .. in the link I got the post from, another reason it said that may drain a battery is due to the crap accumulated on the outside of some batteries, creating a conductive path between the battery posts an the concrete.

Moisture under the battery isn't too surprising. Put down any piece of plastic, steel, or 'non breathing' material on a concrete (basement) floor, and see what you'll get. If the room is well heated, maybe not much, but on my cool floors .. you'll get moisture.

I'm with Royce ... charge, keep warm, and out of the elements.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 09:50 pm:

I change the oil and fill the tank, putting 4 ounces of 2 stroke oil into the gas. The radiator is filled with 50/50 antifreeze mixture. I then drive the T into the trailer and pull the battery. I turn off the gas at the tank, and run the engine until the carb is empty, then squirt fogging oil under each plug and crank it through a few times to spread the oil. I then remove the battery and take it home to my basement. I try to have a full tank to minimize condensation but don't worry about the gas for 5 months. If it loses 20 octane, it is still better than Grandpa Ludwig got. I put half a cup of 2 stroke oil in the gas before I drive it into the trailer at the shed, as I think it helps keep the gas better, and the oil prevents rust in the tank. I haven't removed air from the tires. In the spring, I turn the gas on, put the battery in, and start it and drive it home. Last year it started on the 3rd pull!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 10:48 pm:

I'm with Doc except for the oil in the cylinders. In 5 months time that oil is going to find its way to the crankcase anyway.
5 months is peanuts but as you won't be around to put a charger on the battery for that long I would, at least, move the battery to an above freezing location.
Keeping a battery at full charge is the best thing you can to extend its life.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 12:16 am:

I would go to the local hardware store and purchase some corks and or rubber stoppers to put in the exhaust pipe and carb intake. No mouse is gonna chew through these. Better than shoving a rag in there and finding the mouse got in and used the rag for a nest.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 12:57 am:

I've never heard of anyone having a nest in an exhaust pipe or carburetor. I stored up to 100 vehicles over winters for 12 years in enclosed sheds. My only real requirement was that they have the vehicle out by Memorial day. I never heard of anyone having a nest in their air cleaner or their exhaust pipe. But I do remember everyone invariably pulling the air cleaners off and looking in them. As a matter of fact the only time I can remember anyone having anything that happened inside sheds was one guy stored his Grand Sport in there for 3 years straight, summer and winter and they ended up with some sticks and straw down by the one headlight. But there again, err on the safe side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 04:06 am:

I was told of a member who found a mouse nest in the cylinder of his T Ford. They had climbed up through the exhaust to the motor and found a valve open enough to get into the bore, this was in Michigan so it does happen.

Here our winters are not severe but a guy who put a 1912 Buick away for over a year found mice had made a nest in his rear seat completely wrecking the leather. Seems critters like places with no disturbance so leaving the car alone for long periods can be a problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 07:57 am:

Mike ...
Yes .... definitely happens! I had a spare engine and transmission that my Dad got when HE got the T, back in '84. I just sold it, but pulled the transmission inspection plate off, ... lots of nest in there!

Here's a few photos I took before selling (well .. before cleaning out the nest!) The exhaust, carb, and water in/out-lets were plugged with rags... but the little buggar still found a comfy nesting place!

http://www.youraccordion.com/images/FordModelT/Parts/MotorNo4087557/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 08:01 pm:

My wood shop is unheated most of the time. The mice seem to like building a nest in my band saw. Firing it up on a cold winter day was kind of messy.

My 55 Caddy has one of those oblong batteries under the front fender and is quite a job to get in or out. So I don't. I used to try and put a charge on it about once a month (or maybe two months) during the winter. It lasted 7+ years. Now I used a maintainer. Mice prefer the air ducts over the exhaust pipes. Another mess when fired up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 04:25 am:

I've heard that it's a good idea to pull the coils and store them in a room-temperature environment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 07:04 am:

I didn't say it doesn't happen, "I said err on the safe side".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susanne on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 12:47 pm:

D-con is your friend.

Only thing I would do differently - I would drain the coolant and leave the petcock open, with a piece of screen and cheesecloth over the radiator filler. Nothing worse than having a leak caused by the freeze/warming cycle at the headgasket and getting antifreeze in the oil. It SHOULDN'T happen... but then again, things that shouldn't happen sometimes do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 03:24 pm:

Sorry Susanne but there is a risk to D-con. I spent a week stripping and cleaning the interior of a modern car that the owner had put D-con in to get rid of a mouse. He got rid of the mice, but they passed away IN the car and they STUNK! It was a full year before the residual smell was gone.
The best bet is a trap if you know there is a mouse in the car or repellants to keep them out.

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 08:14 pm:

Bill, Or a cat...NOT the Tom variety. By the way I do have a few to donate!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 08:42 pm:

Susanne,

The good old boys around here know how to prepare old cars and trucks for long term storage.

1. Remove gas cap and throw into field. For a T remove seat and throw into field as well.

2. Remove hood, throw into field, remove air cleaner also throw into field.

3. Remove spark plugs, distributor cap and oil cap, also throw into field.

4. Shoot several holes in radiator with .22 or larger caliber round to avoid freeze problems.

5. Shoot out headlights to avoid battery loss, shoot battery as well to be sure.

6. Shoot out windshield and all other glass to make sure lots of moist air passes through car body/ truck cab.

7. Park vehicle in a nice field where rain can create mud to "set wheels", again, shoot tires to be sure.

8. If you are storing a truck with a wooden bed, make sure you fill the bed with moisture absorbing material, like old blankets and gunny sacks. Load lots of heavy Iron on top to prove that wet wood bends.

9. Plant tree under car/truck to provide that landscaped look.

There, now you're ready for long term storage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Monday, October 01, 2012 - 12:14 am:

As far as letting the air out of the tires. I think that's a great idea. Put the car on jack stands and relieve the pressure on the tires by letting the air out. In the spring the tires (especially bias) won't have flat spots and letting the air out also increases tire life.

I used to have guys show up at my storage facility with mothballs and drier sheets and d-con. They would bring covers and jackstands and insist they put their vehicles on jackstands and have a fit when I told them they couldn't. I also told them they could lock the vehicles as long as they left the keys with me. That use to get them going too. But I had to be able to move the vehicles. Normally when I told them the sheds were locked and showed them the chain and lock I used to secure the buildings I seldom heard anymore about locking their cars. I also told them I'd cover for any damage done by mice and in all the years I stored vehicles I never paid out a cent. And every car went out of the sheds under their own power. They had to or they couldn't store them with me. I would store approximately 100 vehicles each winter. That equates to 1200 units over 12 years and never paid out a cent in damages. Now understand, winters are cold in Northern Minnesota and most animals don't move around much and I never saw animals moving inside the buildings. I'd also like to say about 80% of my business was repeat customers. Once again, I think it's wise to follow the advice these people are giving. Every bit of it. Because your vehicle means a lot to you and it's better to err on the safe side. At any rate at the least pull your battery, put it on a shelf in a warm environment and keep it charged. As far as oil in the gas and draining antifreeze, I don't but I live in a different environment than some. Maybe extremely cold gas doesn't become a problem, I don't know.


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