Possible timing gear problum HELP

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Possible timing gear problum HELP
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 09:02 pm:

I've been told that some where in the past that there were some after market timing gears that were marked wrong for timing. This engine was rebuilt 20+ years ago and appears to have not been run.
The person that I purchased it from took out the valve (because of being rusty and sticking) with out marking them. I had a friend (with great knowledge of T engines) tear it down and check it, the only thing that needed replacing were the valves (now all new) and the mag.( changed) the rest was like new. I just finished putting in car and am having trouble with timing. I have a test light that hooks from the #1 coil to #1 spark plug lead to find when it fires with #1 piston is at 15 deg of top ctr. with the spark lever full retard no fire. If I disconnect the spark rod and move the timer buy hand in the clock wise direction the light comes on "see picture #1" and distance moved .


With timer lever in full retard and timer set with timing gage no fire "see picture #2.


Any questions or answers I'm thinking timing gear is off. Thanks for your help.

Bob

PS wireing is correct as per. marking on new Anderson timer, has there been any mis stamped no on any.???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 09:21 pm:

You cannot use the Ford timing guage to set timing when using an Anco timer. You must set timing so that it fires the plug at a degree or two after TDC with the spark lever all the way up.

The Ford timing guage is fine if you are using a Ford roller timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 09:34 pm:

Royce
Are you saying to bend the timing rod to match
the firing point when full retard ??

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 09:44 pm:

Bob, if that is one of Tony's timing tools, you are about 66.6% done.

Obviously, the timer rod must be disconnected from the timer first. Then get #1 piston at 15° ATDC. Rotate your timer until the LED just lights up. Make sure the spark lever is fully retarded. Now bend the spark rod so that it will slip into the timer without disturbing the timer's position. That's it !!

I'm sure you have the timing plate cover properly centered Bob, but you can also check this by placing the timing tool in the other 3 cylinders, zero'ing it, and see where the timer lights up the LED. Just move the LED clips to the next coil terminals as you check them all. Write down the degree readings and compare them - this will tell you if your timing plate cover is centered or not. If they're all at about 15 degrees then yer good to go. If the plate isn't dead-center then some will be early and some late.

Regards,
Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 09:53 pm:

I guess my advice on checking the other cylinders can be useless if the timer contacts are out of proper position. If you are using a Ford style or similar timer then you can still check the other cylinders to see if they're also firing at about 15°. If you are using an Anderson type of timer and it hasn't been tampered with, it too should give good readings (especially if new) but the four contacts can possibly be out of position if it has been abused or played with. Always use the BIG timing cover centering tool available from the dealers to accurately position the timing cover.

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 10:11 pm:

Bob,
IF in your #1 photo the engine was set at 15° ATDC and the spark lever was fully retarded and the timer just made contact there, then it appears that your timing gears are not timed correctly. When the timing is set and the spark is fully retarded you need about 1 1/2" of space between the timer control rod fitting and the fan belt to allow space for movement when advancing the spark. In your photo it looks like you only have about 1/4 to 3/8" space to the belt, IE not room for advance.

Some other things that may help. When the engine is 15° ATDC the pin in the crack shaft should be at the 9:30 - 3:30 position. Some recommend setting the timing closer to TDC but still after TDC just to give more space for advance and more of a maximum advance.

If you need a way to check the timing gear timing, I have a way to do it without removing the timing cover.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 10:18 pm:

Bob
I disagree with Royce about "a few degrees ATDC" (more later) and Garnet's instructions for lack of precision.
I think your missing one key point about the use of the original Ford tool and Wiltshire's excellent timing tool.
The timer roller (or contactor) turns counterclockwise so it is imperative you have the timer case segment leading or anticipating the roller before starting this adjustment. If not you may be contacting the trailing edge of the segment.
Try this
With the timer pull rod disconnected set the timer case with the Ford timing gauge. Then disconnect the tool and turn the timer case about 25 degrees CCW. Now install the Wiltshire lamp and find 15 degrees ATDC with piston travel. Now slowly turn the timer case CCW (creeping up on contact) till the lamp lights. You have now found the Ford desired point of 15 degrees ATDC for initial timing.
Bend the timer case end of the pull rod so it fits the case without moving the case.
You now have the initial timing at 15 degrees ATDC as For recommended.
Royce and I usually agree, but Ford recommended 15 degrees ATDC for initial timing for safety reasons and wrote the early Model T magneto engine starting instructions to match. I can elaborate on this if necessary.
I also believe if you check closely you will find most aftermarket timers for the relationship of the segments to timer pull rod are very close. Anything else makes no sense!
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 10:46 pm:

Ron,
I think you have a typo in your instructions. After you set the engine at 15° ATDC you need to slowly turn the timer case CW (creeping up on contact) till the lamp lights. Not CCW as written.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 11:29 pm:

All the parts are New, Coil Doctor coils, New plugs set at .030, New Anderson timer, compression at 55 psi , New wiring all checked and re checked ect. I think that Jim's idea of timing gears being off might be the correct one in this case.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Saturday, September 29, 2012 - 11:47 pm:

Jim
You are correct. Here is the corrected text.
With the timer pull rod disconnected set the timer case with the Ford timing gauge. Then disconnect the tool and turn the timer case about 25 degrees CCW. Now install the Wiltshire lamp and find 15 degrees ATDC with piston travel. Now slowly turn the timer case CW (creeping up on contact) till the lamp lights. You have now found the Ford desired point of 15 degrees ATDC for initial timing.
Bend the timer case end of the pull rod so it fits the case without moving the case.
You now have the initial timing at 15 degrees ATDC as For recommended.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 01:07 pm:

Thanks for all the help, but in this situation I find that Jim T "how to check with out tearing in to it" worked. The timing must have been miss aligned "or the timing marks are off on the gears.. I found with the timer and cam gear were in the proper locations the piston was 3 7/8 in down from the top of the spark plug hole. Now I can pull front cover and make corrections.( and see if timing marks are incorrect or just incorrectly installed)

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 02:13 pm:

Bob,
I sent you another way to check the cam gear timing. Here is another way:



Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthonie Boer on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 03:44 pm:

Jim ; Is the lowest red line horizontal ???
Toon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 05:49 pm:

Jim

Sent you a PM but here it is for all to see.
My crank pin is not quite horz. but the piston is at 15 Deg. ATDC. Timing gears were not assembled incorrectly.
Thanks.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 06:06 pm:

Bob,
If you turn the crank 180 degrees, in what position is the drill in the cam hole?

Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 07:35 pm:

To all. I think the problem has been found BUT I don't know the reason. The pin hole in the roller and the flapper part of the timer are almost 90 degs. different "see picture" Reason unknown.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vic Patterson. Grande Cache, Canada. on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 09:26 pm:

Does anyone have any recommendations for repairing the swivel / ball joint on the commutator / timer pull rod? or a simple modification, I have bushed the commutator end but the ball and socket end is extremely worn. (1920 Canadian Touring)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 09:58 pm:

Bob, lay the timer housings next to each other, and recheck the pin locations. I suspect you will see that the timer housing segments are in different places also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Sunday, September 30, 2012 - 10:56 pm:

Bob,
To get the drill bit/pointer near the position shown in my photo you need to rotate the crank 1/2 turn. Then set the crank pin horizontal and compare it to my photo. DO NOT worry about the 15 deg ATDC yet. The first step is just to confirm that the gear timing is correct or not.

After you are sure that the gear timing is good, then you can set the ignition timing as Ron outlined and then the 15 deg ATDC comes into play.

Toon,
The bottom "wrong" red line is near horizontal but I did not measure it. Really if the gear timing is correct it should be evident and if it is off it has to be off by a full tooth and it should be quite obvious. If you just compare the pointer/drill to the the cover bolt should be enough to tell if the gears are in time.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Monday, October 01, 2012 - 11:59 am:

I only changed the timer to the Ford roller type and it is running ok, will adjust carb. and a little fine tuning and see how it runs.

Thanks for all of your help.

Bob


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