Precautions/advice on removing the rear axle - anyone?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Precautions/advice on removing the rear axle - anyone?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Monday, October 01, 2012 - 04:49 pm:

I trailered the tudor to a friend's shop this weekend where it will sit until I get time to overhaul the rear axle, which I hope is in the next couple of weeks. I do have all of the printed material that's available to repair it(I think) - the MTFCA book on the rear axle and the Ruckstell, as well as the Ford Service Manual). In addition, I do have Rocky Mtn brakes and a Ruckstell. The Rockyies I installed myself, so that will be easy to disassemble. This will be my first time tearing down a transmission, so my questions may seem a bit elementary.

Here are some of my preliminary questions:

1) The FSM talks about disassembling the rear axle with the driveline as one unit. Is that the way you guys have done it? Is this a two-man effort or can it be done by one guy?

2) Somewhere, I read and saw a picture of a block of wood placed between the rear axle and the spring to keep the spring from snapping when removing the rear axle. I could not locate it in the FSM yesterday and it doesn't mention taking any precautions when removing the axle from the springs. Does this ring a bell with anyone?

3) Last year sometime, I mentioned that I was losing a lot of oil and several of you stated that the plug could have failed or perhaps is missing inside the transmission shaft. Once I remove the driveline, what is the best way to check to see if it is there? Can a guy shine a light in and check that way? If it is missing and/or needs to be replaced, can a guy go about doing that without removing the engine and tearing the transmission apart?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, October 01, 2012 - 05:06 pm:

1) Yes, the rear axle and drive shaft come out as a unit. You're going to work on them together. One guy with a rolling floor jack can do it fairly easily.

2) After I removed and installed the spring shackles the hard way, I learned the easy way. Just loosen the nuts on the rear perches. Reinstalling, leave the perch nuts loose, install the hangers, and tighten the perches.

3) I'll let somebody with experience talk about the transmission.

You already know most of the info on this page, but it does have pictures of a good way to set up the car for rear axle removal. http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Monday, October 01, 2012 - 08:12 pm:

Jim,

The easy way to spread the spring is with a spring spreader. If you don't have that, you can put wood between the axle and the spring ends and let the weight of the car spread the spring. You can do this to take the axle out and put it back. You will have to let the car down on the wood just the right amount to take the shackles out or put them back.

I like Steve's idea of leaving the perches loose.

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - 01:50 pm:

Jim...I still have that spring spreader if you want to use it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - 02:00 pm:

Bob:

I think I'll take you up on it. Thank you so much! What is a good day/evening to stop by and pick it up?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - 02:04 pm:

The blocks of wood method is so easy, I would not attempt to do it any other way, and finding a couple of chunks of 2x4 is so easy too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - 03:27 pm:

I have removed mine TWICE NOW !! and if I loosen the perches from both sides I didn't need a spreader Jim.. Maybe you don't either but if Bob is willing to lend his grab it now before you start.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - 03:54 pm:

You don't need a spring spreader for a Model T rear spring. Read what Steve said, see your Ford shop manual for pictures.

Spring spreader is necessary for Model A rear springs though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - 04:41 pm:

Never needed to use a spreader and one man can easily do the job with a good floor jack and tall jack stands. Here is a link to my Ruckstell rebuild.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bruckzone/sets/72157623296187928/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - 04:43 pm:

Jim, also, once the driveshaft is pulled, it is easy to look into the end of the trans shaft and see if the plug is there.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bruckzone/4353655934/in/set-72157623296187928


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - 05:10 pm:

Most important thing is to support the chassis so it won't fall down while you are working.

You can put two tall stands, just in front of where the radius rods pass under the frame, or you can put a beam across in the rear and raise both sides.

You will need to take out clevis pins from brake rods both sides including Rocky brakes if you have them. Remove the two bolts at top of U joint and two cap screws at bottom of U joint. Remove wheels and spring shackles and pull out the entire unit. The two 2x4 blocks go between the axle housing and the ends of the rear spring. That will keep the spring in right relationship to the axle while removing the shackles.

To re-install, the hardest part is the U joint. You need to turn it so that the direction of the square spline is in exact alignment with the hole in the rear drive plate. I like to suspend it with string which can be pulled out after it is in it's socket. Some have noted that if it is packed with enough grease it will stay in place. There is also a very thin wrench which can be used to align it. This can be made with some thin metal. It doesn't need to be strong, just enough to turn the drive shaft with the wheels off.

After you get the U joint in place, the 2x4's in place either put the wheels on or place jack stands under the axle housing and put in one spring shackle on one side. If the other one won't go in, put weight in the back of the car to spread the spring until the shackle goes right in. I personally don't like to loosen up the spring perch. I think the spring tension on the threads will eventually wear out the threads if done enough times.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - 06:01 pm:

To install an oil plug you have to remove the driving plate. I wouldn't do it unless you already plan on going thru the transmission. Remember Ford introduced the plug only late in Model T production. Many, many cars had none.
Once the rear end assembly is removed look into the square hole in the driving plate. If you see the pin, you have no plug. The plug is installed behind the pin and will block it from view. Otherwise you'll see the pin and, in front of that the end of the transmission shaft.
In theory you could lift the engine transmission magneto assembly off the pan while still in the car to remove the driving plate, practically speaking, you should remove the assembly from the car.
If you do remove the driving plate, mark the original position and the six bolts so everything can be replaced just as it was originally.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - 07:28 pm:

Jim,
I'm home most of the time...hit the sack about 10.
Going to a cruise-in tomorrow from about 4 to 8 or so.
253dash906dash6952


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - 07:42 pm:

Richard, thank you so much for the explanation. Can I assume that the picture that you showed has the plug in it?

A couple of questions:

1) If many cars did not have the plug was a leak at the driveshaft a common occurence? Did guys just lose a lot of oil, as it seems mine has a pretty good leak coming out of the driveline.

2) If the plug is missing, is there any other way to rectify the situation without pulling the transmission? Can a plug be placed through the square hole that I'm seeing and pressed in or is that not a viable solution?

Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - 09:15 pm:

I used Steve's method of loosening perch nuts. The speedster didn't weigh enough for the wood block method to work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - 09:43 pm:

Jim

Placing the repro plug thru the square end, it just barely fits on its side, there is a round step section for the concave part of the plug to be hammered in to stay put. Placing from the open end wouldn't be practical.

As for a lot of oil leak "coming out of the drive line"..., is your ball cap tight? Is the fourth main gasket in fine shape? Is the U-Joint fully packed with cup grease? If the cap is loose, use a shim, if the gasket is bad, pull the hogshead and pull out the fourth main cap and replace the gasket. Pack the U-Joint housing full of grease, Ford placed the largest grease cup there for a reason.




The gasket is between the forth main and the crankcase / hogshead. That is one place an engine oil leak can spring. The other is a gap at the ball cap and the round U-Joint housing, if there is a gap there (loose or worn- egg shape drive shaft round outer housing), oil leaks can happen there. Keeping the U-Joint full of cup grease will retard most engine oil leaks at the U-joint.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 12:07 am:

I appreciate all of the input and photos. I've been reading up on the Ruckstell parts this week as I'm planning on tearing into it this Sunday. I will also be printing out this discussion to use along with my reference material. If there's any other words of advice, etc. I'm all ears. Thanks again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 08:32 am:

Actually Ford introduced the Welch Plug in the transmission drum very early in Model T production, June 17, 1915 to be exact. This before car number 1,000,000, so only one out of every fifteen Model T's were built without the plug originally.

Ford Factory Letter and engine production records:
Welch plug used in tail shaft of the transmission brake drum to prevent oil leaks out through the universal joint.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Sunday, October 14, 2012 - 08:37 pm:

Just an update:

Bob Gruber was kind enough to assist me in tearing things down today. It would appear that the oil leak was between the two gaskets at the fourth main. The plug is in place and it's readily apparent that that is where the leak is.

We also tore into the rear axle and discovered that the babbit thrust washer had been replaced by a bronze one. That's the good news. The bad news... the driver's side axle has some scoring in it along the keyway, so that will need to be replaced. Also, one of the triple gear pins in the Ruckstell had sheared in half, but was still sitting together as a unit. The bearing on the inside looked good and there wasn't any scoring on the thrust plate. I'll be cleaning up things over the course of the week to see wear patterns and what else needs replacing.


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