Triple Gear Timing

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Triple Gear Timing
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Saturday, October 06, 2012 - 05:14 pm:

Does anybody have any first hand knowledge of a T engine that was run with the triple gears out of time? I know that when you put the auxiliary on the back of a Fuller Transmission you have to have the counter shafts in time. If I remember correctly, if you are not sure if it is in time, you turn it over 51 times and if it doesn't lock up it's OK.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, October 06, 2012 - 05:33 pm:

Triple gears can not be fitted 'out of time' for any of the gears to be as little as 1 tooth out in timing, it would have a bush's missing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, October 06, 2012 - 05:36 pm:

If the transmission with the gears will go on the pins then it's in time. The early triple gears did not have timing marks the later ones did to help. As long as the drive gear is put back on in the same orientation then what ever place the triple gears are placed as long as they have the same tooth count between each one then it will be in time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Saturday, October 06, 2012 - 06:29 pm:

Don't need timing marks on the sets. If you look around the gear - there should be a spot where three teeth are in alignment across the gear. Set the gear in place with that tooth-series engaged, then do the other two triple gear sets likewise. Spin the assembly by hand to make sure it doesn't seize up and you should be good to go. Hopefully I'm correct .... I think it's like every 9 teeth around the driven gear this alignment spot in the triples should be meshed.

Regards,
Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Saturday, October 06, 2012 - 06:33 pm:

Ralph Ricks posted pictures of triple gear failures and some one suggested that the gears were out of time. It sounds like assembling out of time would be impossible unless the parts had severe wear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick Martin on Saturday, October 06, 2012 - 07:39 pm:

Randy, I have had experience with this and can attest that not all triple gears found in an engine will be matched. I think at some point mine was rebuilt and some gears were salvaged from another engine because on mine, only one gear would line up. I manually fitted my gears to where I had rotational slack at all gears when assembled.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 01:13 pm:

The reason I asked the question is because I bought a T with a rebuilt engine and it vibrates more and is a little noisier than any T engine I have built. I have never had a problem assembling the transmission onto a flywheel. I was just wondering if it's mechanically possible to to complete the assembly with the triple gears out of time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 02:49 pm:

Those that think that the triple gears can't be assembled out of time, are badly mistaken!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 04:38 pm:

From my experience with the triple gears they would have to be badly worn in the bushings or teeth to put them together and turn.
From what I remember they would have to be forced on and they would hardley turn if any at all.
Maybe I just got lucky putting them together.
After thinking about it I believe I read the Ford Manual over and over to do it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, October 07, 2012 - 06:06 pm:

The only way I have seen for the triple gears to be out of time is if the driving gear is installed 180 out of alignment. But you would not be able to mount the transmission to the flywheel if that gear was wrong. Maybe it could be explained how we are mistaken.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, October 08, 2012 - 04:31 pm:

Just a bump, waiting for Herms help for instructions to screw-up triple gear timing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, October 08, 2012 - 05:46 pm:

The only way I have seen for the triple gears to be out of time is if the driving gear is installed 180 out of alignment. But you would not be able to mount the transmission to the flywheel if that gear was wrong. Maybe it could be explained how we are mistaken. "END QUOTE"

Mark, the Driven gear CAN'T be installed 180 degrees out, it can go on either way the 1/2 moon keys will let it fit.

You could even cut NEW keys in the shaft, and set the gear 48 degrees, or any number, of what it is now, and it wouldn't make any difference.

-------------------------------------------------

By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, October 08, 2012 - 04:31 pm:
Just a bump, waiting for Herms help for instructions to screw-up triple gear timing. "END QUOTE"

The way Kerry to get one out of time is to not line all the gears up on the same Common tooth of each gear.

Now, I know from past experience with you Kerry, you are thinking that if you move off just one tooth next to the common tooth, you can't get the Gear over the pin, and that can be true or not. Some times you have to go around the 360 of the gear to find one.

Now, brand New gears, may Not have that problem, I have not had all new gears to rebuild a Transmission with.

I am thinking 99 percent of the rebuilt transmissions are like that, with a 1/2 percent, of Nickel, and Sliver, sorry couldn't help it!

Now, Kerry, I know you are thinking that a whole tooth is a very thick adjustment, and it is, BUT it only comes out to 1 to 3 percent of a tooth, when it goes over a Pin.

Assembled that way may still turn seemly all right to a Guy doing his first Rebuild, but when it gets Hot, it may run out of clearance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, October 08, 2012 - 06:14 pm:

Ok, Kerry I seen your post on the babbitt thread. What might help is, we blast all parts in our engines, so there is not a speck of any thing except white steel. If you don,t, you can miss some bad things.

Most People don't know that all gears were marked! "THAT I HAVE SEEN"

Gears I have seen that did not have the Common U shaped mark, as in riveted gears, are still marked.

You have to look for a very small, punch Hit, on all 3 gears, as they need that to assemble the gears at the factory and it is some times very faint.

It looks like a very small arrow head, pointed to the out side of the gear, and on the out side of the gear.

If for some reason you can't find it, we will try a different way.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, October 08, 2012 - 07:01 pm:

Sorry Herm, should have worded that better, using no marks,
I just wanted to stage a scernario of someone walking up to a pile of parts and be able to but it together, out of timing and still turn.
I did come across an gear once that wouldn't work for the love of money, it turned out that the rivets had stretched under load on a very worn trans.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick Martin on Monday, October 08, 2012 - 07:39 pm:

Well mine all had the U shaped timing marks but when assembled spaced as the manual says (every 9th tooth or whatever it is, I forgot) and the U marks where they should be the assembly would not align to the pins and if you managed to get them on the pins the whole transmission assembly's rotation was very VERY tight.

I tried several times then thought maybe one of the pins may have been crooked or maybe I had reamed the triple gear bushings too tight (I did .002" with the feeler gauge as I had shown in another thread). The pins checked out so I went ahead and reamed the bushings to .004" and that sort of helped. By that I mean I could then get the transmission assembly assembled to the flywheel.

There was still a bit of noticeable drag so I wiggled each gear to see if there was any slack. I had one with plenty of slack, one that was snug, and another that would not move at all. I marked that one and removed it while keeping the other two in the same place they were timed to and the result was a fairly free rotating transmission. That kinda made me realize that maybe I had a mismatched set of gears and that reaming them to .004" was not the fix I needed.

Ordered a new set of just triple gear bushings and reamed to .002". Set my dial indicator on the flywheel and checked to see if they rotated true (both upside down and rightside up) and that my hand reaming job was not offset. Took two of the gears and spaced them accordingly with the U marks aligned correctly then when assembled checked for freeplay. I found as before that one was free and that same second one was slightly out of mesh causing a little drag. I corrected this by setting the transmission/flywheel assembly upright on the ring gear and sliding it apart just enough to where I could advance that one triple gear one tooth. That worked perfectly and the two gears had equivalent rotational play. I did the same and fitted the third triple gear and found it was about 5 teeth out of the proposed factory alignment. Assembled it and now the whole assembly is free and will spin like it was on ball bearings but it is built to the .002" clearance and the rest the tighter range of tolerances.
I think if I take it easy and break it in slowly it may turn out to be a very good and quiet transmission?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick Martin on Monday, October 08, 2012 - 07:44 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, October 08, 2012 - 09:17 pm:

It looks like a very small arrow head, pointed to the out side of the gear, and on the out side of the gear."END QUOTE"

That should have said pointed to the inside of the gear, Sorry!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ex trooper on Monday, October 08, 2012 - 09:40 pm:

This is from my pal and mentor in Trivvers. He's a VILE character, and I have to listen to his diatribe usually on Sunday after church, but he's a sharp cookie and has taught me much about Model T's.
Ive driven his speedster and she rolls out at 50 and smooth sans wobbling wire wheels. How do you straighten them??? troop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nffwNAvRqr0&list=UU4tccLnUM8DI78ty8NSvzxA&index=9 &feature=plcp


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, October 08, 2012 - 09:45 pm:

I assembled a transmission to see if I was wrong about the drive gear. I put it on both ways and found I can indeed put the triple gears in place with the marks. Now that I know what to look for on the riveted gears I found the punch marks. I then assembled a transmission with the triple gears in out of time positions in regards to the timing marks but spaced evenly and put the fly wheel on. So far I have been unable to lock it up. Admittedly this is a well wore setup.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 11:09 am:

Herm is right ALL triple gears are marked that I have ever seen. I would recommend that if available to NOT use the early riveted style as the rivet do sometime work loose.

SIDE BAR:
I read posts over and over about clearances and timing. I never read anything about the flange/ridge wearing out. You have all heard Ts screach like a banshe when they are backing up, especially if it is a slight uphill. You have all seen bright shiny spots on the fly wheel where the triple gears have been wearing on the fly wheel. I firmly believe that it is caused by worn flanges. The Green bible (now black) calls for .006 to 010 clearance between the triple gear and the fly wheel. I have never seen a used triple gear that had any clearance. Take a straight edge and place it across the bottom of the triple gear and you will see that you have NO clearance. I suppose that if you were lucky enough to get a motor that came off a combine that only gets used a few weeks each year or something similar you might find a set with little or no wear. Again I have never seen a bushing that didn't need replacing

picture


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 09:25 am:

Well I did a transmission,put new bushings in it and cleaned it up.It works good.
But for 2 days I struggled trying to put it together and couldnt till I read in the book about timeing the gears.Once I read that,and timed it,it fell into place.How in the bleep you can put 1 all the way together out of time is a mystery to me.It has been awhile and I have forgot most of the how to's because of memory issues but I do know,it wouldnt go together out of time for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 09:35 am:

I have found that reading the instruction manual works every time. Whether its Model T's or bicycles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 10:24 am:

Dave Huson, I didn't put in new bushings when I rebuilt my transmission. I put new pins in the flywheel. Measured the clearance between the bushings with proper gauging (you know what that is, a 0-1" micrometer, and a telescoping gage. The whole thing with a feeler gauge is a pretty shaky method.

Kerry, you ought to learn some respect for the rest of the world. Herm hasn't attacked you on this forum yet and you continue to treat him like crap. Baiting Herm to get into a pissing match is lousy. Especially when Herm is right 100% of the time.

Troop, because Bill reads this forum all the time and though he's been banned from it, he's still a pretty great guy. He just wasn't able to keep himself from telling the self-righteous on here that they're full of BS. And though I don't know you, I can't help but tell you, I've ridden in the Pollinator, and clocked it with my GPS. His transmission runs without an over-abundance of noise but there's no way it will run at 50 mph. Top speed with the GPS was 37mph. Even flat out with a strong wind pushing us down hill there's no way that speedster would have gone 50 mph. And he better give me a call and tell me what he did to those wheels because they were fine when I traded them to him. So though you're full of it, you're no where near as bad as he is. Bill, you're full of crap. :-) Oh I should say though that he's an excellent mechanic and his knowledge of the Model T approaches genius. Now you may be talking to him after church but I doubt your doing it on the front steps of the church because right about now, God is probably thinking of sacrificing Bill to use him as an example of what could happen if we decide to assume his heathen ways. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ex trooper on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 05:13 pm:

Hiya Mike G. Although the guys a Catholic, Im trying to convert him over to St Johns Lutheran in Manitowoc. Everyone gets a kick when I drive my 22ish roadster to services.
He mentioned the time you were with him and I know he's tweaked a bunch of stuff, like new coils, and a new carb and it pulls away from me from 35 on up. Running behind him, the right front and left rear wheels do wobble maybe 1/4 inch. Anyone know how to straighten (true) them?
Bill helped me quite a bit with the differential and its ghostly quiet. Replaced the babbit washers etc but used the original style pinion bearing. That was a lot more work for sure.
Ill say a prayer for the both of you guys Sunday. Ive heard about your evil ways haha, but Bill says youre still a good guy. I was glad to help you with those rear end parts so put a dollar on the plate Sunday before you go to confession LOL.


[IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/2a9426v.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i46.tinypic.com/5kfy3a.jpg[/IMG]


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 07:31 pm:

Dave, Interested in your comment about rejecting the riveted triple gears due to the occasional loose set of rivets. I go the opposite way, rejecting the one piece gears, because in forty years I have never seen a set which is not worn on the teeth. This is probably due to the smaller width of the teeth and consequent load on that smaller tooth. I find that it is much easier to find riveted gears with good teeth, rejecting any with loose rivets. The loose rivets are not usually apparent until the bushing is pressed out.

For interest only.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 08:23 pm:

Here's what I just installed after being advised by Dan Mac they are stronger:



Hope I got 'em timed right...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 09:08 pm:

Mike,
It's not hard to tell that you haven't followed all of Herms threads and postings over the years for you to make a statement like 'he's right 100% of the time'. 'He hasn't attacked you on this forum yet' only when anyone else questions some of the things he posts and yes I'm guilty of that myself, It's not respect that I'm looking for, so debating not baiting can resolve questionable issues.


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