How many original 1914 1915 Ford cars with the brass patent plate on the dash actually have numbers on the plate. I am curious because I have seen some with numbers and some without. I would have assumed the ones without numbers were reproduction plates except that many years ago I located an original unrestored rusting in the field 1915 body and it had no number on the plate. Anybody have a definitive answer----thanks
All of the original 1914 - 15 model year cars came with a stamped number plate. So the answer to your question is zero. Reproductions have been made for about 60 years so there are many old looking ones that have no numbers.
The one I found was in 1955 on a rusty 1915 body located in the hills of Calif where it had gone over the bank many years earlier. Definitely not a repro---thanks
Let's see it.
Harry I’m glad you asked the question. I’ve been trying to gather additional information about the 1915 patent plates along with other things for some time.
Royce, thank you for sharing. Do you have some documentation or fossil evidence that you could also share? I would love to add those references to the small amount of information I currently have.
I would have speculated, but I would like to document rather than speculate, that some of the later 1915 model year cars would have had the ID patent plate with the number area originally left blank. Of course we should also try to share what we are using for the model year dates. Even that leads to some questions. At http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1915.htm Bruce (RIP) has the 1915 model year ending Aug 1915. And at http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1916.htm he has the 1916 model year running Aug 1, 1915 to Jul 31, 1916. But if we look at the MTFCI Judging standards sixth edition, page 3 they have a chart that was assembled by Bruce which lists the 1915 model year as Jan 1915 – Oct 1915 and the 1916 model year running Oct 1915 – Jul 1915. And notice that both of those listing still have a month of overlap and if we go with both listing then the 1915 model year ended sometime during or over Aug – Oct 1915.
And you may be using a different month and/or date for the end of the 1915 model year – but if you could let us know what that month and/or date is that would help us better document when you believe the ID Patent plate was still stamped with the car number (which for USA cars was different from the engine number starting around Oct 6, 1911 see that entry at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc11.htm which says:
OCT 6, 1911 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
Motor and body numbers not to agree in the future.
And of course with anything that Ford did there was almost always a time period of overlap from a few days to weeks to months in some cases (and possibly even years – still so much more to discover – but what about the aluminum transmission covers WITHOUT the reinforcement ribs at the bolt holes in the Dec 10, 1915 factory photos of engine # 1,000,000? Those style covers were thought to have gone away much earlier than that by many of us. But they are in the photo – but that is a different story).
I’ll try to add some additional documentation as well as some fossil evidence (i.e. believed to be an original car and why we think it is original car info) in another posting. I’ve asked this question before and I may even have a better bracket than the one that I will share now. But I have some good fossil evidence that Ford was still stamping a car number onto the ID patent plate as late a May 1915 and I have some good fossil evidence that some ID Patent Plates were no longer being stamped by Oct 1915. Would some folks with original Fords produced in the months of Jun – Dec 1915 please give us some feed back on if your car does or does not have the patent plate stamped with a car number? If you are not sure the tag is original to the car – please let us know that. Or if like Jim Cook, the car has stayed in the same family since new (his was purchased Oct 1915) and does NOT have a number stamped on it –let us know the solid history you have also.
And yes we would welcome other documentation also. I have a few items to add but it is late and I need to stop for the night.
I’m hoping I can learn a better range on when the ID plates first started appearing without the numbers and when the finally stopped appearing with the numbers.
For those in time zones where you will be awake longer I plan to try and consolidate some of the information from the following postings:
What Patent Plate and what location was used for an early Jul 1916 touring car? http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/146752.html
Patent Plate http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/54716.html?1209848159
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Hi Hap & Royce---I tried to take a picture but all I get with my camera is a brass blur. The body it came off of was identified only to the extent it had a 1915 firewall/hoodformer and 1915 fenders and rlveted windshield posts.The engine,rearend,hood, radiator and most everything else had long previously been stripped
away-----thanks
I am working on a very original 1914 Touring that still has the data plate on the firewall. It has a stamped six digit number at the top of the firewall inside a small rectangular "window" in the brass. The tag is painted black, but the other numbers and company information are raised brass.
Marshall
When I bought my 1915 Touring, the dashboard had previously been replaced and carried no data-plate. I bought a blank plate and had it stamped with the car's engine number, as I didn't know the original body number. Now, the data-plate bears the car's VIN number, in case I ever have to "officially" identify the car to the satisfaction of the DMV. This is just a simple way to avoid having to convince some bureaucrat that the body number was never intended to be the car's serial number.
Still, had I known the body number of my car, I'd have used that, instead.
I would like to see pictures of the "unrestored rusting in the field 1915 body" - wondering why you think it is a 1915 body if the patent plate has no serial number.
The Horseless Carriage Club began more than 60 years ago and would not accept any cars made after calendar year 1915. This caused a lot of Model T's to be "converted" to look like 1915 model year. Still, it is quite simple to tell a later T body from a real 1915. The patent plate would be a real obvious flaw in the car's legitimacy as a 1915.
Let's see some pictures or it never happened.
OK this is not proof, but more in the way of an anecdote.
I know the history of my (early)1915 touring. I know the family who originally owned it and they were the only family who ever owned it. I know the barn it came out of and the farm it was on. These people were dirt poor farmers and the idea of "restoring" this T would never have occurred to them. Buying the cheapest bailing wire just to keep it going was their style. The thought of spending money on a repo patent plate would have sent them laughing.
My plate has no stamped number.
schuh
Lets see some pictures.
Hi Royce---Like I said earlier the body I was talking about was located in 1955. I was on a Model T parts hunt with my dad. I was 8 years old at the time and no one took pictures.The only characteristics which identified it as a 1915 were as I said earlier. As a boy the patent plate interested me and I kept it and still have it. The body and fenders were brought back to our home and remained in our yard until I developed a real interest and restored it in 1967. I sold it in 1982.
Lets see a picture of the patent plate.
Could it have been a '16?
Per Royce's request to see a picture of patent plate:
The firewall had to be replaced (the original was in the car when I bought it). The patent plate was attached to the original firewall with brass brads if I remember right. When I had the plate off to replace the firewall I examined it with a glass and could find no evidence of stampings of any kind.
schuh
Thanks Bud---I tried to photograph mine but like I said it came out as just a blurry brass rectangle. When I was a kid I removed what paint there was on it with steel wool--- otherwise just like yours
Royce,
Would you please clarify that you do not have any problems acknowledging that the 1916s had the same patent plate but without any number stamped? We have several good photos starting in Oct 1915 that do not have any number stamped on them, but I would consider those a 1916 model year produced in 1915. The photo below is of Jim Cook's original tag on their cut off that has been in their family since new. From memory it was produced in late Sep 1915 and purchased Oct 1915. That is also the original dash that was refinished (he couldn’t paint over the wood). I looked for my notes from Jim, but I did not find them, so I may be off a month on the dates.
Also, please clarify which month in 1915 you are using for the end of the 1915 model year so I can better understand what you mean by no 1915s came without the numbers. Clearly some cars produced after Oct 1915 came without any numbers stamped on the plate. I'm looking for some samples earlier than that.
Harry -- again thanks for asking the question. For 8 years old that must have been an adventure and with your Dad -- a special time. I remember looking at T parts with my Dad -- often times they were free if you would haul them off. Note it would be very difficult to tell a Jul 1915 from a Oct 1915 or for that matter an Aug 1916 produced car. An engine serial number or a date on the body would be a help -- but they look very very similar. For that matter the black radiator bodies look very similar but have a few differences.
I look forward to discovering more with the help of others. Thanks!
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
I think if a Canadian plate turned up with no #'s, that would have to be original, I believe no repo's ever made.
Could this be a reference to when the numbers on the patent plate was dropped?
http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc15.htm
APR 29 Factory Letter
"On or after May 1, the use of body numbers will be discontinued (by Ford) and no records will be kept of same."
Roger,
Yes, that is the reference to when Ford directed that the factories stop using body numbers. I've been working some extra hours so my time to enjoy researching has been cut back. Thank you so much for posting that.
Note for anyone concerned that it says body numbers and not car number or ID Patent plate number -- that is something worth looking into also. But I'm 99% sure that it really means the car number that was stamped onto the ID patent plate. A Discussion of that is buried in one of the threads mentioned above:
What Patent Plate and what location was used for an early Jul 1916 touring car? http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/146752.html
Patent Plate http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/54716.html?1209848159
(Note -- Ford of Canada may NOT have followed that direction. From memory -- not as reliable as ink -- I believe there is fossil evidence of Canadian cars with the ID patent plate stamped beyond 1915. I'll try to dig that up this weekend and confirm or correct it.)
That is why I believe some 1915 model year cars would have a patent plate with the space for the car number but it would be left blank. And if Highland Park started doing that in May then for the months of May - Jul those 1915 model year cars would have had a blank area rather than the numbers. I also think there is a good chance the branches would have implemented that direction at least a few days later -- unless the direction was sent out by telegraph.
Some additional places to look for documentation -- if anyone has access to a seller's agreement and bill of sale for a Model T sold between May - Jul or even later for that matter but specifically during those months. I would anticipate the blank on the form would still be there for Car Number but it would be empty and/or repeat the engine number. That is just a guess on my part about how they would or would not fill out the form.
Again -- the archive records and the fossil records together can help us better understand what happened. And we need to remember they both have some errors in them -- because people make mistakes.
The discovery process continues -- we would welcome more folks to dig through the available information and provide supporting or conflicting data. The goal is not to come up with a single wrong answer but to find out as closely as possible what really occurred.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
True, the 1916 model year cars never have the patent plate number stamped. I've posted pictures of the original patent plate on my (March 1915 body) 1915 touring and the (December 1914 body) 1915 runabout that I used to own. Both of their patent were stamped with the body number. So this does not disagree with a May 1915 date for change over to non - stamped plates.
However Bud claims his 1915 is an "early 1915" - May 1915 is not early. So I don't see how all that works very well as a supporting argument.
I can't carry on a legitimate discussion of a patent plate and car that I can't see. The original post has no evidence to support its claim.
The "fossil record" is not valid if it depends on human memory of a piece of scrap sitting in a field decades ago.
Here is an original plate compared to a reproduction. I made a series of reproductions in the 1950s. The reproduction is the top one. The brass border on the reproduction is wider at the corners. The lower one is an original without a stamped number.
Hap,
It may be easier to see "what is the highest number tag that anyone has?" that is like the ones that Darel posted above. Then, see what cars are attached to them....
1913, 1914 car tags do not match the engine numbers. I believe that ceased about 1911 or 12.
Ken in Texas
Kerry,
If you are looking for a repro Canadian plate,someone up our way made these a few years back:
if you get a brass blur, take a picture without using the flash. just light the room a little and go for it...
Here is a 1913 Canadian reproduction. At least I assume it is a reproduction but it is a rather obscure one to reproduce I think...
I don't mean to derail this thread, but you will find the answer to Darren's remarks regarding the Canadian Patent plate in this link. Posted below.
Regards, John
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/111476.html?1257883540
First thank you to all those adding to the discussion. Royce, I agree with you that we cannot base a discovery on the memories from a then eight year old boy. And I'm not asking anyone to do that. But I do believe it was an excellent question. And please note that Harry never said it was a definitive reference point. He shared that the ID patent plate that he remembered seeing when he was 8 years old and that he still has made him wonder if anyone else had seen a 1914 or 1915 without a number stamped onto the patent plate.
In the case of the 1914s I believe most of us are in agreement that they should have had a number stamped on the patent plate when the vehicle left the factory assembly line (main or branch location). And if I understand you correctly, you believe that all of the cars manufactured up until Aug 1915 had a number stamped into the ID patent plate. If I am understanding you incorrectly please let me know.
In my own case I believe there is an excellent chance that starting around 1 May 1915 the cars would likely have started to leave the Highland Park factory and soon afterwards the branch plants without any number being stamped on the ID Patent plate. And I am asking you and others to help us determine if that is correct or is inaccurate. And the recommendation by Ken Parker should help us move towards that.
If folks would please let us know the highest engine serial numbers (feel free to xxx the last three or four digits) in the Mar – Dec 1915 (or later) that still have a number stamped on the ID Paten Plate. [Again please qualify if you have some history on the car of if you do not. Or if you were the person to remove the plate when you restored it etc. Or if you know it was numbered by someone in the 1917s or later – please don’t enter it into the research. ] Also we would like to know who has the earliest 1915 or 1916 that does not have a number stamped into the ID Patent Plate. Again with that same history information. Hopefully that will bring some supporting information as well as helping to establish how long the overlap was when both stamped and unstamped ID patent plates were used in the USA.
For Bud Holzschuh’s – I think I have some information on your touring car filed somewhere – but when I just looked, I could not find it. If you believe the car’s engine is original to the car, would you please share the date your engine serial number would date to [realizing that if the engine was assembled and stamped with the engine serial number at a branch plant it could have been assembled weeks or even months later]. And also confirm that based on the history that you know of the car the patent plate you have probably came on the car.
I just checked the index on the “Vintage Ford” and the Buyer’s Agreement discussed on page 42 of the Jan – Feb 1973 issue was for a 1914 so it was not that helpful to this search. Also they did not reproduce the document but rather discussed several of the paragraphs. If anyone has a Mar through Dec 1915 Buyers agreement – especially the May, Jun, and Jul 1915 ones – I would love to find out what it has listed for the Car Number.
Again, if someone is not having fun trying to find out more information about this issue – then probably it is not one for them to work on at this time. I don’t like broccoli so I don’t order it. But other folks enjoy it and they do order it. Not a “right or wrong” but a different. Whatever we discover about when the ID Patent Plate first stopped having a number stamped into and when it last stopped having a number stamped into it – I’m looking forward to the answers. And it may turn out like many other answers – there may not be a clear cut answer – or at least not a clear cut agreed by everyone answer. And that is ok also.
Thanks to all of you who are looking for additional clues.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Thank you Hap---well done
Hap
Your posts are always scholarly and interesting!
I will be glad to post the engine # (363626) but I don't think it will help much as I think thats a mid 1913 engine. Since I don't think Henry stored them that long before installing in a car I suspect that its a replacement.
As I was doing the original restoration, I noted several features of the car that made me think it was made in early 1915, but of course I can't remember now what they were. If you have any clues about body characteristics that would help put it in the early/late 1915 camp, I would appreciate.
Here is an overall pic of the car (ignore the old geezer..... but the puppys cute). I would however be glad to post specific pictures if it would help with the early/late thing.
Thanks
schuh
bump
Bud,
Looking at your picture I can see the rivet holding the front seat frame to the body forward of the rear door. This is typical of some bodies made from mid 1915 - 1922.
I can see the remnants of original upholstery and the seat arms have end caps made from metal. This is typical of 1917 - 22 production.
OK I have here a comparison.
First, the patent plate on Bud's car:
A reproduction from Lang's:
The original from my '15, serial number 733122:
If you look at the "t" in Detroit at the bottom of each plate you can see the difference between an original and a reproduction.
does anyone reproduce the Canadian plate?
It is my understanding that Ford started omitting the serial number on those plates in late '15 or early '16, but they still put the plate on the cars.
For Rob -- Yes, some of the Canadian patent plates have been reproduced. Kristopher Cramer back in 2009 posted at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/111476.html?1257441180 that he found some at Dixie Upholstery in Kitchener, Ontario Canada. There web address is:
http://dixies.ca/index.htm While they don't list them on their web site they have a place you can drop them a note and ask.
If that turns out to be a dead end, please see the thread at: See also Darren's posting at:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/25455.html?1172628962 where Darren shares you can contact him and he will put you in touch with someone (perhaps the same Dixie Upholstery?) who has them for sale.
Note the engine number would agree with the number stamped on the Canadian patent plate at least into early 1920. That is not the case for the USA cars.
For Larry - thank you. If I understand you correctly you are in agreement with Royce that the ID plates stopped being stamped after the end of the 1915 model year which would be around Aug 1915 -- is that correct?
I am trying to tie months to when that occurred so we know we are talking about the end of 1915 as the model year i.e. Aug 1915 and not Dec 1915 etc. We are trying to figure out which month the blank USA ID Patent plates began appearing and which month the last of the USA ID patent plates that had the numbers stamped into them to get a better feel for how much overlap when both would have been used.
Royce -- thank you for posting the photos and information. Looking at the two "T's" in Detroit at the bottom of the ID Patent Plate, so far the only difference I see is Lang's reproduction tag the "T" is just a little thicker -- is that the difference or is it something else?
Again thanks to everyone that is helping us nail this down. I do not have a preference for what the answer will be, but I do hope we can clarify what the date range the numbers began to be omitted and when they were all omitted on the USA cars. (Again they continued on the Canadian cars to be stamped and to agree with the engine number apparently into at least early 1920.)
Respectfully submitted,
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