1910 Engine Numbers (For Hap & other Aussies too)

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: 1910 Engine Numbers (For Hap & other Aussies too)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 10:02 pm:

Hap, just thought i would let you know about the reply from The Henry Ford re my 1910 engine. There has always been a bit of confusion if the fourth number was a 3 or 8 334?5

The reply was that 33485 was fitted into a Roadster and shipped to Iowa in December 10. They gave me the Dealers name and all of the build information. Being in Australia i didn't like that answer as 33485 according to Bruce's book was part of 100 engines exported to Canada which is ideal for my cars supposed history

Yesterday i received a reply re 33435, 50 engines earlier. That number was a special "engine only" with RH controls, Kingston Carby, C Cylinder head and was shipped to Walkerville. I am now chasing up the Canadians to see if they can tell me more. Just thought you would like to know that those 100 engines in the book weren't all "engines only" sent to Canada.

Cheers. Alan Long in Western Australia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 03:18 am:

Always knew that Sandgropers were special, heh, heh...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 06:27 am:

And Crow Eaters who take photo's of his Model T Mabel at a Ford road sign! See ya soon DC
Alan in Western Australia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 12:55 pm:

What is a C cylinder head?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 09:18 pm:

Alan,

Thank you for sharing your discovery. And like Richard requested – please let us know what a C-cylinder head is. I believe that is your term for the cylinder head had metric threads for the spark plugs – is that correct? And did many of the cars imported to Australia have those rather than the USA pipe thread spark plug holes? They were also used on some of the cars exported to Europe (see the same shipping ledger listing -- they will say metric and where they were sent in some cases.)

Also I looked at Bruce’s book and CD [the book is out of print but the CD is available from Barbara – visit the classified ads at: http://mtfca.com/showit1/index.html and scroll down to the McCalley entry at Tue Oct 9 11:02:54 2012 or just search on McCalley. ]. Bruce was only recording and in many cases only looking at every 100th entry by that time – because there were so many entries. His listing in the book on page 490 and the CD is show below. It would be a single engine 33,400 to Canada also with a Kingston carb but it does not show that 100 engines went to Canada.




Note, later on in the engine serial number listing he does have “blocks of serial numbers” that were sent to some of the different branch assembly plants. But not in the previous “shipping ledgers.”

I believe some of the Canadian archive information may still exist. I’m not sure how we can gain access to it, as I believe it is at the Ford Canada Headquarters and they have a minimally manned historical department. Perhaps we could make room for some of the Model T information at the Model T Museum. If we could provide room and safe keeping for the documents Ford of Canada might consider entrusting the documents to the club. Anyone have good connections with Ford of Canada and want to check on that for us? And of course a book case of information would not be a problem – but there may be lots of information. The University of Windsor has some of the Ford Canada Archives – but due to space limitations they could only take a small portion that was offered to them. In the case of your 1910 engine – there should be a customs record of it entering Canada and then departing Canada. There also might be a Customs record of it when it entered Australia. That might also be worth looking into.

If I was further ahead financially (I sound like many other folks) I would offer to finance a Model T Ford Foundation for preserving items such as that. The Benson Ford Archives does a great job with the USA items already. But there are numerous additional items of information that could be cataloged so they would be easier to find in the future. And in the case of the Canadian Archives – if we don’t do something they may disappear if they have not already done so.

Again, thank you for posting the update.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Sunday, October 14, 2012 - 12:52 am:

I do recall reading something about the "C" Head but can't remember what it was all about. Definately not metric threads as Australia was all imperial till the mid 60's Even engine # 33485 that was used in a Roadster and shipped to Iowa had a "C" head so it must be an American designation. Could it be something to do with the thumb shape boss at the rear of the head??

I also must have interpretated the book incorrectly as i thought that 33400 - 33499 was one hundred engines but as Hap points out was only those two numbers and that we still have another 90 or so unexplained yet. Will let you know what i find out from Canada about 33435 when i receive a reply

Cheers. Alan in Western Australia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Tuesday, October 16, 2012 - 05:30 am:

Update for you regarding the "C" designation of the cylinder head. I Quote from the Henry Ford..

" C Indicates the fourth revision of factory Part No. T-401, T401 Flat, T401A, T-401B, T-401C"

Cheers. Alan in Western Australia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, October 16, 2012 - 09:00 pm:

Alan,

I did some additional looking and there is a note in the Nov – Dec 1999 Model T Times in an article by Mark Cameron “Interpreting Factory Shipping Invoices 1909-1911.” He is looking at the shipping invoice on a Torpedo 46294 (about Apr 1911). He writes, “The 'C" cylinder head may indicate factory number 401 C which was the third major revision to the cylinder head casting.” But if you look at the information on the cyclinder heads at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/E.htm#eng3

Date of Change Factory Number Change
12-11-08 T401BR Adopted
12-29-08 T401BR Changed screw hole from 25/64 to 29/64"
03-23-09 T401BR Added for use after 1st 250 cars
12-06-20 T401BR Obsolete - "all stock scrapped in June" [not a type-o; in 1920 they decided no one would want any of those early remaining heads.]
02-01-09 T401C Adopted (Thermo-syphon)
02-14-10 T401C Removed spotting boss from rear end
03-14-11 T401C Increased compression space by 3/32"
07-22-11 T401C Added spotting boss to rear end
04-16-12 T401C Added "Made in U.S.A."

It is clear that the “C” head was introduced Feb 1, 1909. Additionally the T 401B head only worked on the water pump engines and would not work on the Thermo-syphon engines. So why would the be marking “C” in 1910 or 1911? I wondered that (and still am to some extent). But in the same article about the same Apr 1911 car Mark shared:

“The floorboard designation (3 slot) is confusing because all Model T's used this type of floorboard after about car number 800. It seems like a waste of time to write this out on every invoice so long after the change was made.”

Based on that – it is possible that the clerks were still marking “C” for the cylinder head even thought it really did not matter around two years after the change.

For our files which hopefully will help document where different information came from, when you shared, “I Quote from the Henry Ford. ‘ C Indicates the fourth revision of factory Part No. T-401, T401 Flat, T401A, T-401B, T-401C ‘ " Do you have a letter and date or name etc. that you can share so we can add that to the data?

Again thank you for your help and I hope you are able to find additional information about your car.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Wednesday, October 17, 2012 - 04:48 am:

Hap, i will scan all of the information received from "The Henry Ford" and email it to you and / or post you a copy. Can you send me an email for me to reply to? Thanks Alan Long Western Australia. Email :- chesma@iinet.net.au

What is the spotting boss that you mention?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, October 17, 2012 - 06:02 am:

Alan,

I sent you my e-mail address -- Thanks! Also if you ever need my address again, if you click on my user name at the beginning of one of my postings my e-mail address is the third line down.

Ref the "Spotting boss" that was removed and approximately 5 months later added back (same one or different style?). If folks could share what they know and/or think that refers to that would be greatly appreciated.

I do not know what it is. [ Why do I still want to guess even when I do not know? Anyway -- my guess -- and it is only a guess -- it was a boss added that was not needed for the engine to run but was used to help position the head in the milling or other similar machine. Again -- just a guess.]

Respectfully guessed,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration