Special 1915 sidelights-Photo

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Special 1915 sidelights-Photo
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 09:40 pm:



Just referring to the center photo.
It has that klaxon horn too.

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 12:19 am:

Interesting. I wonder what the story is behind those?
Great photos! Thank you for sharing them.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 12:49 am:

I did a little tuning up of the middle photo.......

retouch

I don't know if the site is acting stupid again or what....... ?
If the pic doesn't display that will answer that I guess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 02:08 am:

Were there some early 1915 side lights that were not the ordinary type?

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 09:19 am:

Herb,

Yes, the very early 1915 cars used an E&J #6 side lamp that had a larger brass rim and slightly different bottom font shape. It was soon replaced with the much more common E&J #8 that had a smaller brass rim (both had a brass top) and a more rounded lower font/bowl.

Below is a photo courtesy of Kim Dobbins of the E&J#6 on the early 1915 Centerdoor. Note the large door and the difference in the shape of the lower font/bowl compared to the later E&J#8 side lamp.



Below is another photo courtesy of Bruce (I think a part of him will always be with us thorugh his research) ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/sl10.htm



And of course the one we are much more familiar with the E&J #8 is shown below. That design with the brass replaced by steel was continued with minor modifications on the non-electric cars into the early 1926 model year. Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/32370.html (For those who like details – the windshield bracket shown below is the mid-1917 and later – but the lamp is correct.)



For a more thorough discussion including part numbers etc. see the previous thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/32370.html which also includes head and tail lamps.

Thanks to all of you for posting the older photos – they give a great glimpse into the past. And in this case they would be a significant clue to date the car as a very early 1915 touring. I would suspect that the rear axle was the late 1913-1914 style and that there would not be a rivet (actually carriage bolt) on the side of the car in front of the rear door. I do not see one – but I would want to look at a higher resolution photo before I said there was not one. It might also have the two piece riveted steering gear housing and possibly holes for the acetylene tank in the running board. Ok – I’ve convinced myself – Herb please send me a note on where you saw that one – it is worth trying to track down.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 12:02 pm:

I believe that Corcoran also made lamps which look like the E&J #6's. I suspect that either could have been used on very early '15 production.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 02:28 pm:

And here is a pic apparently taken in a dealer's showroom in 1915. (The car on the left has a 1915 Iowa Dealer tag.) This Coupelet is an early one, having no porthole windows in the top. The cowl lamps have the "fat" rims, but the rounded fonts. I have never seen any like these.

cplt

This suggests to me that at that time when Ford was still sorting out the many details of changing over to the "new" style of cars, parts were sourced from various vendors of the day to get the cars together and delivered to the dealers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 09:33 pm:

Mike,

We may find additional evidence (or you may already have found that evidence) to prove you are correct. But then again the evidence may support some other conclusion or just make things even foggier than before. And of course the hard part is gathering enough information, data, photos, etc. to help establish that something is likely to have happened or definitely happened. And then there is still the question of was it a one-off prototype verses normal production etc. And then what would be considered normal production (i.e. the 28 Model S Coupes produced in 1908 – production or prototyping – or checking out the market?) Or better yet the 3 Model S Roadsters manufactured Jul 20, 1909 or the 1 Model S Landaulet manufactured that same day (ref page Bruce’s shipping document data page 482 of his book and also on his CD.

Good news – the photo in the dealer show room clearly shows that at least one 1915 model year Coupelet had those style lights side lamps with what appears to be the more common 1915-1920ish side lamp bowl. Do you know if they are interchangeable between the E&J #6 and the later E&J #8 & #9 as well as the other makers?

I did a quick (i.e. not extensive) check and so far I do not find any references listing another company producing the side lamp parts for the large rim side lamps. From the posting I have referenced before when we discussed the side lamps and the headlamps back in 2007 (see: http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=1916&country=1 ) they are listed as E&J #6. But I do not know if that is from the original price list of parts or if Bruce added that information. Either way, the factory numbers are listed for the large rim side lamps as well as the door and a few other parts. If the Benson Ford Archive has those drawings – that may help solve the question (or may add additional questions).

Thanks so much for posting the photo. Clearly many of us would like a clearer or higher resolution copy to view. If one is available – we only need the Coupelet (well ok – the calendar would be nice also).

While viewing the photo I also noticed the calendar. All references to calendars below are using USA calendars. A quick look at the calendar shows that it has 28 days on if rather than the more common 30 or 31.

From: http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=1916&country=1 we see that Feb 1916 was a leap year and had 29 days and is shown below:



So we can rule out a 1915 Coupelet that never sold and was still in the dealer show room in Feb 1916.

The 1915 Feb Calendar from that same web site is shown below:





And of course it cannot be Feb 1914 which also had 28 days because the 1915 style Coupelet was not even built that early. Also in 1914 Sunday was Feb 1 so all the numbers were in four even rows of seven rather than the 1915 that had 6 days in the first weeks and a single day on the last row. Ref: http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=1914&country=1




We probably could have guessed it was close to that time frame since Mike posted an e-mail from Trent back in Feb 2010 (see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/126504.html?1268414053
) that indicates the normal production of the 1915 model year Coupelets was Dec 1914, Jan 1915 and Feb 1915. But if the calendar had been Dec 1914 then we would have a good indicator that the Coupelet in the photo was one of the first ones. Since the calendar is Feb 1915 – the car might be one of the first Coupelets or one of the ones produced in Feb 1915. Why would a Dec 1914 produced Coupelet possibly still be in a show room in Feb 1915? Good question – most Fords were paid for/contracted for before they were shipped. I.e. the dealer (i.e. Ford Agency) had a person committed to purchase the car. There was even a wait to receive your car after your put your money down with the dealer. At: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc15.htm Bruce captured:

FEB 13, 1915 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
Ford advertising halted. Production listed as 40 to 50,000 behind schedule.

FEB 15., 1915 Factory Letter
Repeat of letter of Feb. 13. Ford unable to produce enough cars to fill orders, so why advertise. Noted that there were plenty of closed cars still available, however.

FEB 20, 1915 Letter to Houston branch
Letter concerning poor sales of closed cars; notes lack of salesmanship.

At the higher price the closed cars were not selling nearly as well as the open cars. So while I’m certain it is one of the Dec 1914 to Feb 1915 Coupelets, so far I do not have enough clues to suggest which date is better than another. I would lean towards Dec or Jan because of the lamps – but that is a “guess” on my part and I have not found enough evidence one way or the other to say that is really the way it happened. There is a discussion in the same posting about when the lamps were likely used – but to my knowledge we are using a best guess based on the information we have and the surviving cars etc.



Note I believe the photo also shows the driver’s side headlamp is that “larger headlight bucket” that is also shown below on the early Centerdoor that Kim Dobbins previously owned. (Thank you Kim for the photo – additional discussion about that / those early 1915 headlamps is at the thread mentioned above: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/32370.html ). Below is that headlamp.



There is still lots more to discover and document. I appreciate everyone’s help and at this point if you have any additional photos of Coupelets or Centerdoors with those large side lamps or headlamps – we would love to find out more about them. There is even a slim chance that the Coupelet with what appears to be a round lower kerosene bowl actually has the other E&J #6 style but it is an optical illusion that it is round in the photo (as I shared – slime chance – but a higher resolution photo would probably answer that for sure). Also the E&J #6 may have had some running changes and E&J may have supplied it with the new style lower bowl as the prepared to switch to supplying the E&J # 8 side lamp. Just another thought on what may have happened.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 11:51 pm:

Hi, Hap -- thanks for the in-depth discussion. I had not noticed the calendar in the picture.

I can answer one of your questions: The fonts do not interchange between the earlier and later types of lamps. Although they look similar on the outside, the two are made entirely differently in that area where the fonts attach. Maybe I can get some pics of them tomorrow.

I'll re-read your post in the morning to see whether I might have any other pertinent information to share. But it's late now and I'm going to hit the hay.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, October 14, 2012 - 09:16 am:

BLUF: (bottom line up front) if someone has access to a 1915 “Price List of Accessories and Accessory Parts” please check the following part numbers to see if they say E&J or something similar:

part number 6561X factory number 6561 the wide rim side lamp

part number 6483X factory number 6483 Side Lamp Clear Lens

part number 6397X factory number 6397 Side Oil Lamp Door



Hi, Mike and others,

This thread is probably more detailed than most folks are interested in, but for someone restoring a 1915 Model T Ford manufactured in Dec 1914 to Feb 1915 -- this is probably a fun read.

Mike,

I checked my copy of the MTFCI Digital Library and while it has many different copies of the “Price List of Parts” those do not contain the lamp parts (at least not the 1915-16 ones). It does have a copy of the Jan 15, 1916 “Price List of Accessories and Accessory Parts” which does contain the lamps. However it does not contain any listing for the large rim side or tail lamps that I can find. I.e. the part numbers listed by Bruce in his comprehensive “Price List of Parts.” I suspect but I do not know, that they are probably listed in the early 1915 “Price List of Accessories and Accessory Parts.” If anyone had access to one of those would you please check in the side lamp section for part number 6397X factory number 6397 Side Oil Lamp Door (as compared to the same part 6956X that was for the standard 1915-16 (available in brass or black)). Also check for part number 6483X factory number 6483 Side Lamp Clear Lens. Also the complete wide rim lamp part number 6561X factory number 6561. Do any of them list E&J #6 in some way or fashion? Or are there any other remarks listed?

Mike, if you can obtain the factory drawings for any of those wide rim side lamps they may or may not contain the information of who produced them.

Some additional info that may or may not contribute to the future discoveries:

E&J appears to have produced the same style E&J #6 with a spade mount – probably for other makes of cars. But it appears the parts would be interchangeable and that the body could probably be modified. There is one illustration in the early 1915-16 Sedan and Coupelet brochure that has a Coupelet with the spade mounted lamps.



But because it is an illustration it may have been based on a prototype car and/or just the artist’s concept. Note it also has some headlamps that look to me to be similar to a fork mounted version of the ones on the Centerdoor Ken Dobbins previously owned. Clearly not something to base a conclusion on but a possible lead on something else.

Ford often produced a prototype of what eventually went into production. For example the prototype removable cylinder head that was tested on a Model N engine and car before it was included in the Model T (see: http://modelt.org/discus/messages/2/35597.html?1329156233 and scroll down to the entry: By Hap Tucker on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 8:07 pm: ). I would give it a good chance that the photos of the Coupelet taken Sep 23, 1914 would be the same car / body that the artist used to make his illustration for the brochure. If you do not have copies of those photos, they are available from the Benson Ford Archives ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc14.htm which says:


SEP 23, 1914 Acc. 833, Photo 1527, Ford Archives
Photo of 1915 Coupelet. Shows fork-mounted electric headlamps.

SEP 23, 1914 Acc. 833, Photo 1528, Ford Archives
Photo of same Coupelet, rear view, shows 1914 rear axle.

And from e-bay back in Sep 2007 I copied a couple of photos of what I believe is an E&J #6 lamp but with the spade mount rather than a single bolt mount in the back. Below are some photos of that lamp:

(And if anyone knows the policy about reposting e-bay photos -- please let me know.)













Note the clear lense above has "E&J No 30" cast into it. The lamp is approximately 9 1/2 inches tall. It is a blade-mount and it is for the right side. It may be for a 1914, 1915, 1916 Buick, Chevrolet or other small to medium horseless carriage automobile. If anyone remembers a previous posting on that subject (I do but I haven't found it yet) -- please give us the link. Or please add who did use those style lamps.

Thanks to everyone who has been keeping an eye out for other good photos are information on the Coupelets, Lamps, etc. Every little puzzle piece helps us to be more accurate.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Sunday, October 14, 2012 - 01:16 pm:

Hap, Here's a set of E&J 6 lamps I have been holding onto in hopes of finding a car to mount them on. The bodies of these lamps were made to mount the fonts and doors on either side.

Are the lenses marked E&J 30 on these the part number for the lens itself?

At this stage of my life I don't think I'll ever get a car to mount these on and I would be up for letting them go to someone that needs them to finish a correct restoration. Just send me a PM.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, October 14, 2012 - 03:50 pm:

Jay,

Thank you for posting the photos! The number that is cast into the class lens “E&J #30” I believe is a number used by E&J to identify that part. We are fairly confident it is NOT the number Ford used to identify that same part as the Price List of Parts has the clear lens part listed as 6483X with a factory number 6483 for that same item. I did a partial skim of the “Price List of Parts” part numbers and I did not see any that were only two digits. I tried doing a search on “ 30 “ but that still brought up every item that was listed for 30 cents – so I gave up on that search.

Jay, would you please confirm that the brass top of the E&J #6 is blank and does not have any stamping with Ford or E&J etc. The later E&J No 8 side lamps often did have the top stamped with Ford script; E&J; Model 8. See Lang’s http://www.modeltford.com/i/c/1515l.jpg for a look at their reproduction brass top. I suspect the E&J Model 6 has a blank top – but if those who have them or who know would please let us know. Thanks! [Note the standard 1915-1926 side lamps were provided by several lamp companies but were all made to the same specifications so the parts could be interchanged. At this point I do not know for sure one way or the other if several companies or if only E&J supplied the early wide rim side lamps. That is one of the items we are trying to discover.

Jay – thank you also for offering to make your lamps available to someone who needs them to complete a restoration. I believe Mike Walker’s 1915 Coupelet would probably use that style lamp as well as the Dec 1914 Centerdoor (Ghost) that Bob Kiefaber adopted and gave a good home to. I do not know / remember if one or both of them are looking for those style lamps or not. The main reason I was so glad that Bob adopted Ghost was I knew I would never get around to restoring Ghost. (To finish my “to do list” was something in excess of 900 years. I think I’ve gotten it down now to a much more manageable 100 years or so of work remaining.) There are also a couple of other posters who also have early 1915s that the lights might be appropriate for. As illustrated by the posting at the beginning of this thread, it is likely that a very early touring might also have that style of side lamp.

Again, thank you all for your help and patience in helping us track down this sort of information.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, October 14, 2012 - 04:48 pm:

Hi, Hap -- I just went to my shop and looked for parts books. I have the Feb. and Aug. of 1915 "Price List of Parts," but not the "Price List of Parts and Accessories," which has the lamps. My earliest one of those is from 1920, and it lists only "regular" lamps from 1915-20.

Here are some pics of the early lamps I have, compared with an E&J #8 (on the right).

lamps

l2

l3

The far left one in the first 2 pics is a tail lamp which matches the middle cowl lamp. They are not marked at all, whereas the E&J #6 has "E&J Detroit" on the wick adjusting knob as in Jay's pictues and the ebay ones you posted. The red lens in the tail lamp has "Jefferson 911," which is the same as the later ones. The third pic compares the insides of the early cowl lamp and the E&J #8. You can see that my early lamp is similar to the E&J #6 pictured above in this thread, but it's not identical. And it is quite different in the area where the font attaches, having a locking thumb screw. The brass rings around the lenses are only slightly wider than the later lamps, not nearly so wide as the E&J #6.

I don't remember for sure who made the two on the left, but I'm thinking Mark Cameron told me they are Corcoran. I got the tail lamp from him to match my pair of these cowl lamps. He's not answering his phone at the moment; probably at Hershey. I'll let you know what I find out tomorrow.

You are probably correct that not many folks will be interested in all these details, but it's easy enough to skip a thread for those who want to do that. But a few of us do have an interest in details of T's from this particular time, so I think it's worth putting any information we have out there where it's accessible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, October 14, 2012 - 05:16 pm:

With regard to the early Coupelet's being in a showroom in February, I don't think that's unreasonable. That's only 2 months since they began producing them, which was in December of 1914. Here is part of a table from the Encyclopedia which gives sales figures (not production figures) for each month of 1915:

1915 Jan Feb Mar Apr May June July Aug Sept Oct Nov Dec Total

Coupelet 148 114 375 201 187 75 46 36 17 11 252 646 2,108

Our Forum software eliminates column alignment in our posts, but what this chart shows is that Coupelets were sold during every month in 1915, even though their production stopped in February and didn't resume until October of '15, when the first '16 Coupelet was built. Production then continued in November of '15 for the '16 model year cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, October 14, 2012 - 08:17 pm:

Mike,

Thank you for checking and posting the additional photos. They add yet another dimension to my looking at early 1915 photos. In the past I just looked to see if the front lens/door was the larger diameter or if it had the hinge or latch on the side. If it did not – I assumed “incorrectly” that it was a normal standard side lamp. From your pictures it is obvious that someone was producing some sort of “in between” the E&J Model 6 with the large rim and no 30 lens and the later 1915-1922 standard production (rim changed from brass to painted but basically the same size lamp). Now I will need to look a lot closer!

It also brings a new understanding to Bruce’s comment we often see “some variation” when discussing Model T parts.

Would you please post the link or give some directions on where I can also find the data you posted on the 1915 sales? It probably has other years listed also. I have seen the ones from 1921 onward (page 463 and following in Bruce’s book and CD) but I have not located the earlier ones.

Again, thank you and others for their help in adding additional puzzle pieces and facts to this area.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, October 14, 2012 - 10:17 pm:

Hap -- The blurb I posted is from the online Encyclopedia on this site. Click on "Model T Ford Sales Figures 1908-1919." It has sales numbers for each month during that time period.

It mentions sales of Coupelets and Sedans during some months before they were actually produced, leading to the notion that they were produced earlier than they actually were. The Benson Archives has publicity pictures of Coupelets and Sedans which were released in September and October of 1914, so some pre-production sales probably occurred then based upon those photos. Those pics showed some 1914-type characteristics which probably were not present on the production cars. Some of those components were 1914-type rear ends and fork-mounted headlights. I have large prints of those prototype cars, but I don't know the rules about posting them on a public forum.

The 1915 closed cars weren't actually produced until December of 1914, but for many years there has been the misconception that the cars were produced beginning in September. I think those dated photos of the prototype cars probably are responsible for that misconception.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, October 15, 2012 - 07:51 am:

Mike,

Thanks so much -- after looking at it again I remembered I had seen it previously but had not looked at it lately.

I like what Bruce wrote on page 461 of his book. He was talking about the Canadian production statistics but I believe the comment could apply to many others areas of information about our cars. In this case he is talking about the Canadian production statistics that are documented in several "official" Ford USA as well as Ford Canada documents. He said, "They don't always agree, and who knows which is correct, or if either is."

I'm sure that the list that Bruce had influenced us to believe the production & sales for the Centerdoors started in the Fall of 1914 rather than Dec 1914. I wonder if it was possible to "sell a car" and have it annotated as sold before it was produced and shipped. The old debate about the oldest Model A Ford - was it the one first sold or first delivered or first produced? Just for documentation the photos are referenced: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc15.htm

SEP 23, 1914 Acc. 833, Photo 1527, Ford Archives
Photo of 1915 Coupelet. Shows fork-mounted electric headlamps.

SEP 23, 1914 Acc. 833, Photo 1528, Ford Archives
Photo of same Coupelet, rear view, shows 1914 rear axle.

In addition to the photos back in Sep 1914, Ford USA published a sales brochure about the closed cars that said:

Coupelet:



Centerdoor:



That brochure and over additional 600 pieces of literature are available on the MTFCI Digital Library available from the MTFCI see: http://www.sportproducts.org/MT%20International/MTI%20DVD-CD.html or Langs etc. see: http://www.modeltford.com/item/DL001.aspx

If you obtained your photos from the Benson Ford Archives they should have come with a “use statement” that explains how you may use them. In general if you paid the lowest cost they would be for personal use only and the highest cost would be to put them in a commercial film etc. And there are lots of things in between. The Benson Ford Archives is a national treasure for our early Ford information. One of the ways they raise support is through selling copies of different items. Note if you obtained it from a different source then it probably has a different “use statement.” If you scan the original photo on high resolution there is an excellent chance you would be able to pick out additional details by zooming in on the scan. There is no restriction on what you report about the photo – I.e. you can take one of the photos you previously posted and say the lamps on the photo xxx look identical to the one shown below and then post your photo for reference etc.

I'm looking forward to what you and others continue to uncover about the lights and the production/sales etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Monday, October 15, 2012 - 09:49 am:

Hap, both lamps have blank brass tops.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, October 15, 2012 - 10:01 am:

Jay -- I sent you an email yesterday about the lamps. Did you get it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul griesse--Granville,Ohio on Monday, October 15, 2012 - 10:51 am:

For what its worth----my 1915 unrestored depot hack has the brass top and round rim sidelights marked "Ford---model#8" They look like the E&J models Hap is referring to. Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Monday, October 15, 2012 - 11:14 am:

Mike I just replied to your email.


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