Does a car with a reproduction body carry the same resale weight as an original?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Does a car with a reproduction body carry the same resale weight as an original?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 05:16 pm:

Does a car with a reproduction body carry the same resale weight as an original body?

Most restored T's have repo tops, wheels, seats, radiators, etc... and they don't seem to lower the resale.

I'm thinking about the 09-12's that sell or are for sale for $30,000 and up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 05:43 pm:

Robert,

Good question. Two of our "wood cars" have the original body and wood. The 09 doesn't. I'm not sure it seems to matter on value, but I would always prefer an original over repro. One "mitigating factor" might be that the new bodies seem to hold their finish better, and that is an advantage.

And many "original" wood bodies have been "skinned" with fiber glass or other cover to prevent seam cracking. It's kind of like everything else in our hobby, something for everyone.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 06:01 pm:

In some respects the 'new' bodies for the early Fords would be better if you enjoy long tours. A new body is more robust than the 100 year old wood '09-'10's unless they were well cared for.

As long as the reproduction body is well done, and matches the old in most respects, the value may be higher with a new body. Of course, the underpinning have to be of the proper ones for the year. All adds up to a nice restored 'new' Ford in my book.

Check these Rootlieb 'new' Fords at Hershey, for sale, and both had correct chassis and all parts were authentic for the model year.








Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 06:21 pm:

The question of value is very much personal taste. Some collectors, myself included, aren't attracted to autos with reproduction bodies or coach work. For others, new coach work is not an issue.

A few years ago I was looking at two expensive automobiles at the RM Auction at Hershey. As a practical matter, the two autos were nearly identical....as in same make, year, body style and condition. One sold for $600,000 and the other sold for $1,600,000. One had the original body and the other had a new body. At that level, a new versus original body made a significant difference. The same may or may not hold true for early Fords.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 08:39 pm:

A little OT but a few centuries ago I put a Frazer-Nash Kit body on a VW frame. What a time selling it. You see them at Hemmings for what I sold it for years ago. Almost a loss. A great project but re-sale isn't on your mind when you're having fun building & fabricating. The VW Bug, in it's original condition, is worth more today than the kit car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 08:41 pm:

Horn bulb ain't correct!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 08:45 pm:

Tim,

Which did you buy :-).

Charlie, I agree. In fact, as most of us would agree, it is always best to buy them restored, and/or original, as you can't afford to make them right yourself (unless you have skills and facilities that you assign no value to).

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 09:03 pm:

I remember the Clear Lake Tour in '06, where there were two cars vying for the Stynoski Award. One was a '10 Town Car, replete with scads of brass and looking perfect in every respect, and the other was a '26 Touring Car, also perfectly restored. To the amazement of most folks there, the '26 won the award over the brass car. Boy, was the Town Car owner hot!! It turns out that the Town Car had a reproduction body made by Ray Wells, and the Touring Car was a restoration of an original car, which is what the Stynoski guidelines call for. Apparently the judges didn't think that a car with a reproduction body should qualify as an "original car." I also heard that it had some modern bolts & nuts, etc., whereas the '26 was comprised of all original parts. Dan Treace might have some input on that, since he is an MTFCI judge.

This is all to say that there is some validity to the value of an original car vs. one put together with major components which are reproductions. Not many of us will ever be in contention for the Stynoski Award, but this is one case in point which demonstrates the value of originality in these old cars we mess with.

When trying to apply a dollar figure value to a car, there are many other factors involved. If two prospective buyers on ebay really, REALLY like a car, its market value will go through the roof regardless of its makeup.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 09:18 pm:

Mike, you old razorback, good post. I couldn't agree more. And I own some of those "purty" early cars. But I agree, if it's a beauty contest, the original car should win out.

Fortunately for me, when I'm gone (or we're sitting on the same porch in some nursing home trying to remember who the hell we are), the next owner will be able to make them Into whatever they choose to.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 09:21 pm:

A car with a reproduction body would not be for me. Different strokes I suppose, but I hate parting with cash so when I do, it's going to be for the real thing (or as close as I can get).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 09:27 pm:

I would have to say that an original in less than perfect condition would always trump a reproduction body. A case in point is my M1917 ambulance, it is a reproduction body done as close to original as possible, but is worth a fraction of an original if one should happen to turn up.
Best
gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jeff cordes on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 10:40 pm:

By the time you rewood, reskin, and completely rebuild an original body, can you really call it an original, if over half is replaced its not really original is it. So in my opinion all these original bodied early cars out there with new sheet metal here and there and new wood are basically new bodies. Yes there are exceptions to this but on the other hand there are a lot of owners out there that won't admit it either.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 12:32 am:

This thread reminds me of George Washington's original axe--"..it's had the handle replaced 3 times and the head replaced twice."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 12:49 am:

They are only Fords once.... We've built a 1909 touring and now a 1911 Roadster, both are look-a-likes. Sure they are 100% model t parts as far as chassis... ect... You've got to put things into prospective with cars built this way.
They are not originals, but they are pretty to look at nice to own great to drive. But deep down you know that Henry didn't build it...
I view them the same way as I do a 1966 Shelby Cobra (Factory Five kit car) you've got the look, the speed, the style, the class.... 90% of the public doesn't know the difference but you still know what you have, so I said that to say this if your a purist at heart you'll never be happy with a kit car..! Model T or other wise.

Here's my Roadster I'd let it go, for $4,500 less than the above kit car. I do have top irons and new bows as well, (no top material)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 12:52 am:

Forgot... She weighs in at just under 1500 lbs. approx: 1470 - 1480 lbs..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 01:27 am:

Brass cars and speedsters have this in common. The gray area is huge between "really original" and "really a remake". Both also are affected in their dollar and inherent values. Quality of the finished car is often more important (for many people) than correctness in both. And both are often sold for too much money when purchased by people that do not really know what they are looking at.
Both also bring the really big bucks for the well restored from most original and correct cars.

One of my favorite hobby sayings; "I would rather have a wrinkled original than a perfect copy".
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 02:14 am:

If your talking early brass wrinkled originals... Heck who car afford one of those.... Lol !
In our area I know of several "quote unquote" original early T's 09 - 10 - 11 -12's ect.... I've had the pleasure of inspecting all of these cars I'm no expert on T's but it's pretty easy to spot incorrect parts on all of them, to your point Wayne what is really real anymore?
Maybe we should all work on saying all period correct instead of all original... Hummmm!
My opinion on (original) is.... it has every piece it lift the assembly line with...ahhhh maybe that's over kill..? But just say'n.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 03:37 am:

What was the price on the torpedo roadster body car?

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 10:54 am:

Herb best I can tell it looks like $6 K.... Plus....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 11:25 am:

Rob: "skills you assign no value to". Everybody that does this kind of thing does that. It's why guy's will say I've got $15,000 in this car and they sell it for $10,500. If you do a ground-up on a T and count EVERY THING you could buy a new Rolls. like I said about the Frazier-Nash, great fun, great experience. No pay off. It's fake and they know it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 11:41 am:

Many, many original 1909 and 1910 Model T Fords have later parts on them. If they were driven and used, parts got changed. Dobbins, of course owns that nice original 1910 that came out of Lancaster, WI. I would take that Ford over any "restored" 1910. My 1910 has a later drive shaft/differential.. I do have an original unit for the car. It has a later carb, but I do have a five ball one for it. I run it with three tier E&Js, but I have a very nice pair of JB 60s for it. I do hope to bring this T back to all (or most all) original or correct parts. In the mean time I have had over 60 years of fun with it as it is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 02:59 pm:

Steve McC,
I know I can't afford them anymore. My nearly together mostly '13 speedster has a re-pop body, but most of the rest of it is proper era. My '15 runabout project is a '15 because it is an original body and I have most of the rest of the correct parts for a '15 car.
I could probably build a 1911 runabout body easier than I can restore what I have. I could easily modify many of the rest of what I have to make a great looking 1911. But it would truly be a fake. It would look great going down the road. But the '15 can be a very correct car with a little effort. "Original"? Not in the truest sense of the word. But it would be as original and more correct than half the 1915s out there.
I, too, think better words need to be used in place of "original". Either that, or qualifying words should be added like "restored from" or "assembled as". This is something I have stated on many occasions.
If I could afford better? There is a 1911 on another thread right now that I would love to consider. Except if I could afford it, I would have bought the 1909 he bought that caused the '11 to be put back up for sale. (Because I knew about it and it was a lot closer to me.)
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 03:07 pm:

I think if you are restoring/making a "correct" car (Ford), it starts with the engine. The way I look at it, you can acquire and replace all the other early parts as you go.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 03:19 pm:

At some point safety has to be a factor in the restoration of anyone's car. I have replaced the wood frame on my '22 Coupe because it was so rotted and worm eaten that it was unsafe to use. I would rather know I can run down the road safely then take a chance killing family and friends just to say "it's all original". All the nails, nuts, bolts, sheet metal have been reused as well as seat springs etc. But I know what I have because I did a total tear down of every nut and bolt and I mean every nut and bolt. I may not have a Stynoski Award winner but I have a car I'm pleased with and safe.

I have learned a lot from this forum and learn more every day but to take a chance with safety just to say it's original is foolish.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 11:48 pm:

I agree with Rob..... Fix it, paint it, drive it, use it, have fun, change out parts as you go, these old cars can and most do have a lot of the wrong stuff but as you find the right stuff change it out.
Over the years we've had 6-7 T's and a couple of A's all of which were mixed bags of parts to an extent... But all of them drove and ran well.
Darel is right back when they were used as primary transportation you put on what ever it took to keep them going no matter what year the part was just as long as it got you back on the ol'dusty trail....


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