Thermostat

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Thermostat
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ronnie Wehba on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 09:42 am:

is it possible to find a stat at a local auto parts to fit a T or should I just order one?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 09:58 am:

You should just not use one. They eventually will cause the car to overheat, wrecking your day and potentially causing third degree burns and a visit to the doc in the box. Often the root cause of blown head gaskets and warped heads. Seen it many times. Bad, very bad, totally unnecessary idea.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 09:59 am:

Ronnie,
This old thread shows lots of Model T "thermostats".
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/170854.html?1290697172
I bet you can find something around home to use if needed.

Really, with the original Model T cooling system, a thermostat is not needed. Of course if you have an unneeded water pump then you may need a thermostat.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 10:50 am:

If it gets hot enough to puke coolant out of an over filled radiator you probably don't need the expense/work of fitting a stat. Actually I don't think I've read here about any one's stock T running cold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, October 20, 2012 - 11:30 pm:

Those who find it better to run the hot X plugs really need a thermostat instead.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 08:36 am:

I've not found that to be the case Ralph. If you run X plugs then you don't have any spark plug problems, ever.

The thermostat, when it fails shut (they always do), causes the engine to overheat severely. Then you will have to either fix it on the side of the road or ride the vulture wagon. We see this on every Model T tour. It is sad to watch, people often try pouring in cold water into the overheated radiator / block and then get burned badly when the boiling water spews back out the top of the radiator.

All this thermostat business is counter productive, and doesn't make Model T ownership more enjoyable for anyone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 08:54 am:

Uh, Royce, what do you think would make the T thermostat less reliable than than it is on all the other cars in your driveway, or all the cars around you on the freeway? They seldom fail.

Running an engine too cool wastes gas and wears it out. That was well known in the T era.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 08:55 am:

It's just my opinion and I'm far from a Model T expert but I have to ask; why do you think you have to do something different than what Henry Ford successfully designed? A clean cooling system that is allowed to work as it was designed is more than adequate for a stock Model T engine. Both of my T's had water pumps on them when I bought them. Within days of their purchase I took the water pumps off and flushed the radiators and the engines. I have yet to have either of my cars over heat. It's also my opinion that the companies that make the water pumps worked hard to create a market for a product that's not necessary on a stock Model T. And I cannot figure out why people would want to put a thermostat in a Model T. Especially when considering that even an open thermostat creates a partial restriction and once again screws with Henry's perfectly fine design. There are some aftermarket products that make sense when put on our T's. As an example the new fan pulley with the sides on them and modern bearings are great. Rocky Mountain brakes are an excellent idea. Especially for someone who live in hilly terrain. Wire spoke wheels just don't look right on Model T's but I wouldn't build a speedster without them. For what it's worth these are my opinions and I figure no one should look at them as gospel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ronnie Wehba on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 09:04 am:

ok guys i gonna try to find some rad hose at auto zone this morning and put it all back together and try it,after finding my dumb$ss mistake last nite, maybe it will be a-ok. checked the fins all are tight,just for you'alls pleasure here is my opps again gonna print it and hang on shop wallopps hose


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 10:46 am:

I don't have any explanation of "why" thermostats in Model T's are unreliable, troublesome and worthless Ralph. It actually doesn't matter "why" if you just don't use one. Then you can just enjoy your Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 10:49 am:

Good luck with finding the right hose locally. I think those days are long gone. BTDT


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 11:23 am:

Hey Royce, how well does a T engine run in sub freezing weather? My understanding as to why a thermostat is used is not to enhance cooling, but the opposite, to slow cooling so the engine can get up to operating temperatures. I may be wrong, but my T seems to run better when the engine is warm.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Gelfer, Milwaukee WI on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 11:23 am:

I agree with Royce. I tried a thermostat for one summer with the idea of getting the engine up to operating temp. more quickly, to improve efficiency. The car started to overheat on a trip, and I pulled off the road. I removed the thermostat, and have not had any problems with overheating since. The basic design may be primitive, but it really does work best.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 11:29 am:

Hey John, When I read that you tried the thermostat one summer, my first thought was īsn't that the time of year that you would remove the thermostat? Generally there is not problem getting the engine to operating temps when it is warm.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 11:29 am:

In sub freezing weather a T engine works perfectly well. Unless you have a water pump, in which case the water pump causes more problems.

One of the many great qualities of thermosyphon cooling is that when the temperature is cold the coolant does not move until it warms. I've driven entire days in my Model T's at or below freezing. The cars run great and just like at 115 degrees they will not overheat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 11:34 am:

I thought that temperature difference made the thermosyphon work, and if the water was 32° in the radiator, and 80° in the engine, would not the water circulate? I have a John Deere tractor with thermosyphon cooling, and it has a radiator louver to close when the temperatures are low so the engine will run warmer, because the water will circulate in it with out it reaching optimum operating temperature.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 11:37 am:

The coolant doesn't circulate until it warms up. If your engine runs too cold, you can partially cover the radiator until it gets hotter. That was the way they did in the old days in cold weather.

The problems are caused by "improvements" First thing is a water pump. The water pump causes the water to circulate when it is cold and slows the warmup process which is then followed by a thermostat to keep it from circulating until it is warm. If you don't use a water pump, you won't need a thermostat.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 11:38 am:

Exactly right. The water will only circulate as much as it needs to. If you desire warmer engine, install a piece of cardboard over the radiator. It is simple, trouble free and won't be hard to remove if the engine runs too warm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 06:30 am:

"You should just not use *anti-freeze*. *It* eventually will cause the car to overheat, wrecking your day and potentially causing third degree burns and a visit to the doc in the box. Often the root cause of blown head gaskets and warped heads. Seen it many times. Bad, very bad, totally unnecessary idea."
------------

Thermostats have been around longer than glycol anti-freeze, yet you recommend this non T era product, Royce.

"If it was good enough for Henry..."

Putting a 180 thermostat in place of the original 195 thermostat in some moderns has resulted in measurable drop in fuel economy. Why would you do that? Likewise, why would you run your Model T at 140 or cooler on cool days?

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 06:45 am:

Actually Ford recommended anti freeze in the T shop manual. Anyone who does not use anti freeze risks ruining the radiator and block due to corrosion or freeze damage. It does not affect cooling so far as I have noticed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 06:57 am:



What anti-freeze is recommended in the T manual? Glycol anti-freeze reduces heat transfer and will poison pets when the Thermobarf kicks it out onto the ground.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 07:39 am:

Those people who wrote that the thermosyphon system only pumps when there is a temperature difference are on the right track. This is a form of thermostat, although not as exact as the mechanical device. As the engine gets hotter, more water is circulated. However, in really cold weather, you need something to partially block the radiator. I see lots of old photos of Model T's in snow with a form of blanket over the entire hood and radiator. I think Royce is right that a mechanical thermostat is unneeded and can eventually cause overheating when it fails. The only time I would use one is if I had a water pump and the engine was running cool all the time. And then I would have a spare thermostat onboard. I used one on a Model A, but eventually took it off when it failed.

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 08:45 am:

That water soluble oil is inferior to ethlyene glycol in many ways. Here are four:

A. It is more expensive
B. There is no way to test it for corrosion protection (ethylene glycol can be tested for PH)
C. It provides no protection against freezing
D. It is not commonly available in auto part stores, at least none around here

I don't see any reason you would want to use that crap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 08:54 am:

I live in Northern Minnesota. I run antifreeze year round. I can't imagine anyone in this climate not running antifreeze. I suppose if I lived in Southern California I might skip running antifreeze but would feel like I was forgetting something. My biggest problem is getting the kids to carry all the old antifreeze down to the creek and dump it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gordon Byers - Rangely CO on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 09:50 am:

Living in NW Colorado I run antifreeze year round also. After 45 years I know where the T likes it's fluid level so it does not "barf" any of it out. It appears to me that if you aren't running a water pump that a thermostat would be a restriction causing overheating, especially in hot weather.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Wolf on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 10:01 am:

Gordon;
I live in Florida and I run antifreeze year round also. It has a lower boiling point than plain water.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 10:16 am:

Neil: some tractors (Semi tractor trailers) have operating shutters to increase engine temperature. Some were manual and some had an automatic thermostatic control. Don't know if their in use today but the slow heating diesels from years back needed them just as the old timers used the blanket or cardboard over a car rad to get the temp up in cold weather. But keep in mind it's easily removed. As to water soluble oil: I've posted/asked why some guy's seem to like to experiment on their T's with home made radiator, engine and rear end fluids.You wouldn't do that to your modern car. For the most part today's stuff is miles better than anything available back in the T's day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 10:37 am:

"My biggest problem is getting the kids to carry all the old antifreeze down to the creek and dump it."

You forgot to add a smiley to that, Mike; or what's in the creek you want to kill?

By running glycol anti-freeze, you're changing the whole Thermobarf formula from what Henry designed.

"why some guy's seem to like to experiment on their T's with home made radiator, engine and rear end fluids.."

Glycol anti-freeze fits that description.

:-)


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