Toe-in on a 27 Fordor question...

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Toe-in on a 27 Fordor question...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 02:55 pm:

My toe-in on the Fordor measured by the rims would appear to be 5/16". Is this to much for this car. It was measured while sitting not jacked up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 05:15 pm:

Don -- Measuring the rims is not accurate. I suggest you do a Forum search for detailed instructions on how to use a pencil mark on the tread for your reference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 05:22 pm:

But how do you know if the rims aren't bent? I did try to use the search on the website but didn't work. I'll try to google it. Also, is the toe-in the same for 30" as the 21" rims?
Don't mean to knit-pick just want to be sure of good information...thx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 05:24 pm:

Don,

When you find the forum thread on using the pencil mark on the tread -- please post that link so I can add that to my notes to post next time.

Until then, I would recommend to check it in a couple of more places (i.e. move the car forward or back) and then I would recommend try to obtain the recommended 3/16 to 1/4 inch. But there is a good chance you will find out your are close enough – especially if your wheels have a little bit of run out and change the reading depending on where you measure.

The Ford Service book says to measure from the metal felloe rather than rim -- but it should be similar. [And of course they didn't have a computer to access or forum back then. :-) ] And that the distance in the front should be 3/16 to 1/4 inch wider than in the rear. It does not say to jack up the car -- so on the ground should be fine. Recommend you move the car forward or backward to rotate the wheels a little and check a couple of other spots. According to the Kelsey 88 wheel drawing the acceptable run out on the wheel is 1/8 inch. The note on the drawing reads, “ Felloe must not be out of round nor out of true more than 1/8 inch.” The drawing is dated May 23, 1919 and last shown as last updated Aug 13, 1923. So even a brand new Ford back in the day could have some variation in the reading due to wheel run out. And of course you want the wheel bearings adjusted properly and other connections snug without excess play in the tie rod.

For illustrations etc. along with the directions please see the posting “Front Axle Adjustments” at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40382.html

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 05:30 pm:

Correction -- closer together at the front...dah...

Respectfully corrected,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 05:31 pm:

OK, here we go: Jack up the front axle so the wheels/tires will turn. Place a concrete block standing on end in front of each tire and hold a pencil or pen steady on the block while you turn the tire. You need to get two marks opposite each other on the tires. Rotate the tires so the marks are at the front and back. Set the car down and roll it back & forth a little to get everything "settled." Get someone to help you hold a measuring tape, and measure the distance between the lines at front and back, equal height to the hub center. You're shooting for 3/16 - 1/4" greater distance at the back than the front. Adjust the tie rod as necessary; one turn = about 1/8".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 05:50 pm:

Here is a link to how it is done also. Same method. Don't be put off by the Thread Heading , scroll down to the section that covers the toe in part of the thread. Regards, John

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/217224.html?1307810500


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 06:09 pm:

Don,

Note I do not know if there was or was not a change to the toe-in specifications for the balloon tire Model T cars – but I do not remember one. For the Model A Fords – the toe-in initially remained 3/16 to 1/4 inch (ref page 415 of Victor Page’s “Model A Ford Construction Operation and Repair.”) In the Sep 1928 Model A Ford Service bulletins they discussed the change to now using 1/16 inch toe in plus or minus 1/32 inch along with the introduction of a new modified spindle arm.

What would that mean for Ts? I would guess using a little smaller amount than the 3/16 would work on the T also. But that is an untested guess on my part. I’ll let those with more experience chime in with what they have found to work well. When I checked the “Vintage Ford” articles – the couple of them I looked at all quoted the original 3/16 to 1/4 inch toe in. So you should be safe with 3/16.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 07:36 pm:

Thanks all, Hap...I just talked to a expert and he said on the "Improved" (26-27) models they cut the camber in half compared to the earlier "T's". That is what spurred my question on the toe-in. What I found on the searches so far pertained to 30" clinchers and such. I have a need to see information specific to my Lizzy just to satisfy my own stupidity. I think i'm completely safe with his recommendations of a 1/4". The balloon tires seemed to change things a bit. Thanks to all who responded it sounds like the ole gal is very close to what it was back in august of 1926...unbelievable !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 09:37 pm:

I did a Forum search after I recommended that Don do it, to try to save him some time. I didn't find what I was looking for, but I did find an earlier thread saying that the Ford Repair Manual stated that the toe-in was to be measured at the felloe. Of course, that was with brand-new wheels, which presumably were fairly true. We all pretty much do it at the outer limits of the tire tread these days to allow for discrepancies in the wheels and rims, so the measurement at the tread would be a little different. Sometimes when I've driven cars set up with the toe set at 3/16" on the tread, they seemed a bit squirrely when driving them. I'm thinking that the 3/16" at the tread might not be quite enough for good tracking for some cars. If you set yours up at that distance and it seems a bit flighty on the road, you can give it one more turn of the tie rod end to make it track better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Thomas on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 10:49 pm:

Roll the car forward about 3-6 feet, just to take the slack out of everything. Slap a piece of duct tape on the front of each tire, make a mark with a pen. Measure the distance between the marks. Roll the car forward until the tape is in the back, measure again, should be about 1/4 inch more in back. This method takes into account all the slack in the steering system, and measures just like the car would be rolling down the road.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, October 21, 2012 - 10:59 pm:

I do it the way Michael Thomas says. I use a carpenters framing square to find the center front of the tire and put the tape there. Then roll the car to where the tape is centered in back of the wheel. The back should be farther apart than the front. I adjust it in this way. I shorten the tie rod to where the wheels just start to toe out in front, then lengthen the rod one turn and check. If the back is wider than the front, I lock it down. If it is still toe out in front, I turn it one more turn and measure again. You can't get an exact measurement because the adjustment can only be done one complete turn, so just set it to where the back is slightly farther than the front and it will be fine. If you have too much toe in, you can actually get a shimmy and wear the tires unevenly, but if it toes out, the steering will wander from side to side.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 02:45 am:

Just read what Norman posted and do it.
Anything more than a 1/2" toe in is too much.
Oh, sorry I forgot I am on the T forum, to much.

When I worked at a big Rolls Royce dealer in San Fransico they spun each front wheel and scribed a line in the rubber near the center of the tread.
Then they put the car on the floor rolled it back& forth to center the suspension and measured with a tape measure the distance of the two lines and compared the front with the back. that was the factory authorized way to do it.

I use a teloscoping curtain rod to compare the inside of the tire distance at front to the distance at rear,
My way does not take into account for wheel wobble but than I don't do alinements on Rolls Royces, just Rolls Canardys. Thats a car that Rolls down one hill and Can 'ardly get up the next.
It's good enough for my own cars and I don't need anyone to hold the tape measure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 03:17 am:

Great idea Aaron.......NEVER would have thought of the curtain rod thing!


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