I'm converting my T to 12 volts with replacing the generator with an alternator and changing the bulbs, will the 12 volt damage the horn? I have read it will not really hurt the starter but no one ever said anything about the horn
OK, I'll go first. Why?
Thanks Steve ! !
What kind of horn do you have? If it's mag, then no it won't hurt. If it's motorized then a short toot probably wouldn't hurt. Beyond that and you'll let the good smoke out. Might as well go with a 12v horn too.
If the horn goes nuts on 12 volts, get a dropping resistor like was used on 12 volt ignitions until a few years ago. It can mount on the firewall, and will drop the voltage enough to protect the horn.
I'll second, or third, or whatever, the notion -- Why??
Over and over on this Forum, folks have asked about converting to 12 volts, and almost universally they have been told to first try making the 6 volts work as it was intended by using the correct cable sizes, installing a starter solenoid, and putting a jumper from the frame to the engine.
Do all that, and you'll save major bucks over what you are contemplating, and your T will start and run as intended.
Perhaps he wants to run 12 volts with an alternator to power more electronics, run an AC, or whatever. He didn't ask "if" he should, just if it would ruin the horn. BTW, I'll 4th the motion.
12V update to a Model T? Not a good solution for any known problems I know of. Why are you making this change? Just curious.
My Dad and I ran my grandfather's 27 coupe on 12 volts for years with a 6 volt starter and horn and a 12 volt alternator. The horn normally only makes a Beep-Beep noise so just tapping it once in a while shouldn't hurt. I only had trouble with the 6 volt starter on 12 volts when I got frustrated trying to hand crank it and pushed on the starter button TOO long. Wham! The bendix hit the bendix cover so hard, it knocked the cover clean off the oil pan, and it was held on with the three screws. At least one stayed in the pan and the other one or two, I found on the garage floor. We had previously used a 6 volt; then an 8 volt battery in it. Why, the mag didn't work from the first day we started the rebuilt engine and we didn't have the knowledge or some mechanic close by that did.
Have you tried using the old 6v air conditioner compressors? The clutch took almost 5 amps to operate. Adding the necessary fans will tack on another 25-30 amps. Going to 12v sure would solve that problem and makes a lot more accessories available. Not to mention better lighting.
Don't know why you guys keep knocking 12v conversions. Then turn around and add Z-Heads, new carbs, disk brakes, headers, etc. to your own Model T. I just don't get it.
Dr. Noel, how many Model T's have an air conditioner? It would be fun to know.
John, If your wires are good, all connections are solid, your generator is working and you HAVE A GOOD GROUND, 6V does a good job..
I forgot to mention that the starter also has to be in good shape. A dirty, unmaintained, starter is often the major problem for a 6V system
To answer your question, I got a step-down 12V to 6V resistor from one of the Model T vendors (I think it was intended for use on a Model A). No problems with my T horn in over 10 years of use!
The only reasons to run six volts are the price of light bulbs and getting a jump start or even the fact that you can get a 12 volt battery at some stores at 10 o'clock at night or borrow one.
I use 12 volts on all of my T's and use 12 volt generators with good three way regulation, but I drive Speedsters and don't have to be correct. But I don't like alternators because they just don't cool well unless they are hung on a bracket up where the water pump goes. Ha Ha that should make some folks angry.
If your magneto is bad or missing, 12v will give better power to the buzz coils.
The E-timer will make the buzz coils better, too, as an alternative to 12v.
Frank, I have a VW alternator with thru shaft to turn the waterpump. Just need to make the brackets.
rdr
The best reason I could come up with is if you have a non electric T and you want to put a starter and lights. The 12 volt batterys, wiring and misc parts are readily available at most parts stores. If it is 6 volts you should fix the 6 volt system as it is the cheaper fix.
$140 and 135 for a starter and alternator from Becker with a lifetime warranty ! If youve never heard a T crank with 12 volts youre missing a treat. Much like a 4 banger late model chevy or triumph etc. Two spins and its running; also fast enough to start on mag with no effort. troop
"Two spins and it's running."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCWnmPrxKo0&list=UUFVx528ORtpDgCPJXbFCA6w&index=3 6&feature=plcp
Hey, where'd Mr. Markham go?
He was tired of being beaten severely about the head and shoulders!
I believe you're right Peter.
When I bought my '26 coupe back, it had been converted to a 12v system. Here's what happens to the bendix spring if you convert to a 12v system and keep your 6v starter (first 3 pictures. Last picture is what it should look like). Notice how the two spring ends were bent to opposite sides of the spring). The teeth of the ring gear were not very functional either after being slammed so hard with the bendix gear at each starting. I'm lucky I didn't end up with a crankcase full of steel shards. Needless to say, I converted her back to a 6v system. She is much happier. Jim Patrick
Not bad for a young whipper snapper Steve. The video was Willy's first start on a fresh motor hence the exhaust packing smoking.
I saw that and after carpal tunnel twice, a left ulnar tunnel and two shoulder jobs, I realized my cranking days were over. I called LD Becker and two days later had the BRAND NEW starter installed. I had a T as a kid and that one took a pal on the starter button AND me on the crank (another fresh motor) to get it to fire. I swore never again'... troop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVzr58dIMhg&list=UU4tccLnUM8DI78ty8NSvzxA&index=2 &feature=plcp
Music to my ears, Steve and beauty for my eyes. What a treasure!
Trooper,
No need to tear up a shoulder. As stated before, a properly maintained Model T doesn't need a heavy duty starter.
http://m.youtube.com/?reload=3&rdm=mcc2pj3va#/watch?v=FojdrSmxkgQ
Yeah, I know, even with the ten or so Ive owned over the years, most did well on 6 volts. You just need good grounds and connections with ample sized wire and a good starter switch. Mine came with NONE of the above including a starter, alternator, or even a battery frame. It was naked from the git-go.
So now with the 12 volt system, complete with sealed beam lights, DOT3 approved tailights and a solenoid for the start, a single bump and its running. Open the mixture 1/4 turn and we are off. Choke it once and its flooded.
Odd thing, my 6 volt 41 merc convertable sounds like a model T and it needs a good choking and finesse with the gas pedal to run. At 20 degrees it might just decide to not start. Its all semantics; I doubt if Ill drive the T this winter (open car). As a matter of fact, theres probably one l more run before it gets drained for the season. At least it doesnt have a water pump to drain too. ;-)
Just for the record, my 52 panhead Harley (I converted to electric start) is 12 volts as well and beats the pants off my pals 6 volt bobber for lights etc. One mans ceiling is another mans floor... troop
I had to work a double and did not have time to get my hate mail sorry I asked didnt mean to upset everyone! I was under the understanding this site was for questions and advise not a place to be judged
John,
Don't worry about the tone of the responses. Some folks are overly adamant about their positions on a variety of topics and rarely is it personal toward the person who asked the question. Sometimes those with opposing views can get bent out of shape but usually just with each other.
Ask away and ignore the folks who can't be pleasant in their replies.
Walt
Hi John Markham, Please do not stress. We all want to help you. I had a '22 TT that I converted to 12V because the Mag was dead. Eventually I repaired the magneto and returned it to 6V for starting and lights.
My TT lights were just as bright and it cranked fine. Converting to 12 V was a patch for a problem I needed to correct. I hope this is a bit of wisdom I learned the hard way. If it helps you, I'm glad it not, do what is best for your situation... in the final analyses, It's your car. Enjoy it and have fun!
Hal, I didn't ask the question but I've seen 3 on tours so far. They were all on closed cars. If I start driving the Coupe instead of the Touring on tours, my wife may insist I have one also!! She's a little concerned about Kanab next July as it is.
John Markham, please don't take us too seriously. We sometimes argue about little things just to get a topic discussed. T's run well on 6 volts, but they also run well on 12 volts. The biggest concern I've heard with 12 volts is the starter. The opinions on that vary!!
Welcome to the forum!!
John,
It's not hate mail as such. Folks on here will always eventually agree that it is your car to do with as you wish...they just like to help you make an informed decision and the ways it comes about and across can always make for an interesting read!
Unfortunately, amidst all of the anecdotes, you sometimes need to dig through for the facts of that informed decision.
More than several have gone to 12V and more than a few can report success stories.
Others will find a reason why the 6V system is actually bogging down and fix it. Then staying 6V can be called purist if you will, but some just want the challenge and quest.
Your horn may 'hang' but a tap is usually OK...
I don't know what the torque v. volt v. RPM rating is on this aftermarket starter is, and Becker would probably have that...
Dumping 12V across a stock starter CAN near double the breakaway torque and constant torque throughout the RPM range if published charts are correct and again, thats where this Bendix can get pretzeled. To much, too fast, trying to accelerate too much inertia that doesn't want to turn as freely as the starter is trying to do.
I'm still not sure there is a known real answer to the question of the 12V alternator ultimate watt output before a diode turns turtle. Buzz coils take very little 'watts', its the other stuff that may want to suck it dry when added...
The lights don't care, just change the bulbs...
When equipped with a buzz coil ignition, don't let one just buzz away while sitting and not running, the points then arc and burn much faster because of 12V...
As to adding other aftermarket 'toys' rated 12V, there are other ways to get it...
Just my .02, no real opinions as to what is right
Here we go again!
With such a passionate membership, most of whom's main concern is the promotion and preservation of the Model T, it is sometimes difficult to avoid being judgemental when ones opinion has, in many cases, been formed by a bad experience. In those cases the advisor is sometimes so desperate that the advisee not have to experience what he did, that he comes off negatively, when all he is trying to do is help. Also, it is very difficult and takes a real diplomat to advise against something without sounding critical or preachy, especially if the newbie or questioner expresses his intentions to do what the advisor is against.
Ideally we should provide as much information, stories, experience and advice, as possible and allow the questioner to arrive at his own conclusions, free to choose whatever answer best fits his circumstances, experience level and wallet. Jim Patrick
PS. George (Cherry Hill). Your helpful advice, completely without judgement, was perfect and a good example of what I mean.
Yeh, Jim, but George was off base on this, IMO:
"I'm still not sure there is a known real answer to the question of the 12V alternator ultimate watt output before a diode turns turtle."
The enemy of an alternator in a T is the lack of cooling. If it's cooled with a fan as in original flow-through installation, it should last almost forever. I've never seen a diode fail in the T, but had rotors and stators burn up after 4-5K miles. I now have it ventilated as much as possible. Dunno how much that will help. A generator is better in that location.
Unholey Alt, 1999
Holey Alt, 2000
The original alt. quit on the co. E-350 at 200K miles, and I found the brushes had worn clean through the slip rings.
My reason for wanting to go 12 volt was my mag does not work, and my generator quit, it would be cheaper to replace the mag instead of going 12 volt I can pull the engine by myself but all I read about how tricky it is to set up a mag I decided not to do it, but after all the negative feedback I just canceled my alternator order and will rethink this the car is in storage until spring
He never said why he's going to 12 but here's my loose change: He'll need a 12 vt. charging system
(alternator) a new batt & bulbs. Going cheap on the starter which he will have to repair/replace at some time using 12 on it. A couple of C notes as I see it. I'm a dollar counter and in my book repairing what's there is the way to go. If you're trying to use 12 vt. add-ons: radio, whatever, a small lawn tractor batt would serve nicely & pricely.
FWIW - an 80+ inch small and cheap battery cable can reduce the initial voltage to the starter to about seven volts (it increases thereupon) and a Ford V-8 starter spring can be ground down a little for the bolts and is much stouter than the original T spring.
Ralph Ricks - You made a comment very interesting to me; you said, "the original alt. quit on the co. E-350 at 200K miles, and I found the brushes had worn clean through the slip rings." (Did you really mean 200,000 miles?)
I'm assuming that it was the brushes that completely wore out and not the slip rings, right? What I'm curious about as what you attribute this wear to; the heat? It's always been my opinion that the slip rings of the alternator as opposed to the segmented copper bars of a generator armature are one of the alternators best features in the area of "long life". Just wondering your opinion about the extreme wear that you mentioned Ralph.
Also, I've seen a 12 volt GENERATOR advertised and I'm wondering if this would be a logical alternative to a 12 volt alternator. John Regan (who's opinion I highly respect) has stated numerous times that he feels that generally speaking, Model T's usually do not have the need for all of the power that alternators put out. So again, maybe the 12 volt Model T generator would suffice and of course, solve the excessive heat problem of alternators.
Thanks Ralph,........harold
Oops,...meant to say 12 volt Model T generator. I think built by Becker if I remember correctly.
"I know when its' a time fo' me to be makin' water Miss Daisy..." Morgan Freeman
My take is still this: and feel free to crunch the numbers!
NEW 12 volt starter with lifetime guarantee $140.00
NEW 12 volt alternator with NEW gear and lifetime guarantee 130.00
NEW 12 volt battery with 36 month warranty $50.00
NEW OLD STOCK bendix drive $60.00
NEW 12 volt solenoid $15.00
NEW 2/0 600 strand welding cables with silicone jacketing and soldered and tinned with silver ends $10.00
NEW 12 chinaman ahooga horn 19.95
Ability to SEE and especially BE SEEN at night;
PRICELESS!
All this done from exactly where I am sitting now without buying junk, cleaning and rebuilding, time and effort etc AND no black fingernails! If I were building a Stash Konowlski or what ever the guys name was, 100 point car it would matter. This is what matters to me, and believe you me, Ive had old greasy generator fires on board before and a 6 volt battery explode under the floorboards. OOPS! Hit a pothole and blow out both headlights WAYYY out in the country and drive home with a flashlight.... Its still all freedom of choice! And on that note, dont forget to vote! ;-)) troop
L D Becker makes a 6 volt alternator that works well. The group I run with has a total of 5 of his 6 volt alternators and no problems. You don't have to do anything, just put in the place of the 6 volt generator. I believe he gets $145 plus about $10 shipping. You don't have to do it this way but it is a viable option. And it is guaranteed for as long as he is alive.
Harold: yes, K is short for kilo, or one thousand. It's universal in electronics, and metric measures, too: kg, kw, kc.
Yes, one of the brushes wore clean through one of the slip rings to the plastic below, and had the other one almost worn through. The brushes were harder than the slip rings in this case, but they were worn down almost to the end, too, so it was decent engineering, I guess. We bought this van with 120K miles ten years ago, and it has been trouble free, except for a rear wheel bearing, and the alt. and radiator earlier this year. Cars don't rust out here.
Oh, it also spit a sparkplug out of the 5.4 aly head and a helicoil wouldn't hold, so I tapped it out to 1/4" pipe and used a Model T sparkplug adapter. That has worked good; sort of a backward conversion...
I think a 12v gen. is better than an alt in the T gen hole. I would buy one if I didn't already have a supply of cheap alts for parts.
rdr
The advantage of a gen over an alt I haven't seen mentioned in a long time is push starting with a really dead battery. An alt needs some voltage to start genning, but the gen has enough residual magnetism to gen enough voltage for the spark.
I used to be able to push a VW fast enough by myself to hop in and pop the clutch and start it. Ah, the good old days?
I have two of the 12 volt generator conversions made by Randy Johnson in Lincoln, Ca.I have had them both for over 30 years and never a problem. - He is list on the suppliers list - John
Thanks Ralph - That '27 depot hack I bought from Pete Cosner's family is about 95% now that Steve Tomaso has completely rebuilt the engine and transmission, except that the 12 volt alternator never has worked as long as I've owned the car. I never use the headlights, so I've been getting by with just an occasional battery charge, but I'm seriously thinking of replacing the alternator with one of those Becker 12 volt Model T generators (that I've heard good things about) and one of John Regans voltage regulators. It'll not only look better than the alternator but as we discussed, it'll run cooler that an alternator too.
By the way Ralph (and anybody else that's interested) you're probably aware of this, but Steve Tomaso was showing me (on the alternator on my '27 depot hack) how it's common for the mounting gasket to partially restrict what little airflow there is when an alternator is adapted to a Model T and that the gasket should be carefully installed and the excess gasket material "trimmed" in such a way as to NOT obstruct ventilation holes in the alternator. Anyway, for what it's worth, and thanks for the response about my alternator question Ralph,.....harold
Hey,....another one to consider,....thanks John!
T coils work better on 12V if the mag does not work. The problem is it can be hard on the starter drive, which can flex enough under the stress to touch the bendix cover and loosen it over time. This will result in a big oil leak and engine damage. A 12V Becker starter is a good choice to deal with that and enjoy the benefits of better lighting and use of 12V accessories. A resistor will keep the horn happy and sounding like it should. It's your car. Do with it as you like. Please don't hesitate to come here for help. Remember that all of us here are passionate about model T's and opinions vary.
Fordially, Erik
I thought this thread was about a horn?
Garnet
Garnet, I was just thinking the same thing. Kind of makes you wonder what's wrong with these people. Though you gotta admit, it was kind of cool watching Steve crank his T "again". And I always enjoy it when ex trooper shows us videos of Willy's pollinator but I'm not real sure either served to answer John Markham's question. So I'll take a stab at it. John, you can use a 6 volt horn on a 12 volt system but, it's going to severely shorten the life of the horn. And, if you try to use the horn to excess it'll burn out rather quickly. But you can do it, just don't expect any reliability from the horn. The flat part of the bathtub curve that demonstrates mean time between failure is going to be really short. Actually the curve may be more of a flat without ever ramping down or showing any exponential change at the end of product life. It just might immediately die and that would be all she wrote.
Sorry Jeff, I couldn't help but give you and Wily Willy a bit of a bad time.
No fair!! You graded me on the bell curve!! troop
Ralphie...
Mea Culpa Pardner...
The bigger culprit IS heat!
You never had diodes go in modern iron??? Let me guess....during the mid-80's you weren't driving any of that light duty GM-Delco stuff on their 6-bangers, right? Or did I just manage to get the cream of the crop a few times?
[p.s. sorry for the quick drift...When the heck is that tranny going to be done? Been about a year now, eh? I'm waiting to hear about the running in up and down Rt 5 at oh...maybe...65mph!]
During the mid-80s I was driving light duty GM-Delco stuff, but it was pre-1965 Corvairs with generators.
Yes, I've seen my share of alt diodes that vibrated loose; the first being in a '64 T-bird.
Somehow I find about an hour a day to work on the ol' brass picup. Can't rush the fun, you know. I've been renewing parts as I go, like a new firewall, and stripping lacquer off the brass.
Lost parts have been part of it: W18 sparkplug washer, bendix cover bolts, and even a toilet bolt.
Sorry for the drift.
Main problem that the alternator has when used in the generator location is that typical alternators used a combo FAN and v belt pulley to force air through the alternator since an alternator must have forced air cooling to handle any real load current. Look at most all junk yard alternators and you will see that the back of the drive pulley is a big fan blade. They also typically mounted the alternators as far away from any heat source as possible hence they were often driven by a long belt out to the location of the alternator drive pulley which was away from the motor and mounted so there was as little metal-to-metal contact with the motor as possible. Generator does not need forced air cooling typically because it is a lower current device but also because the high current part is the armature which is spinning in the ambient air while in an alternator the high current part is the stator and diodes and those are not moving to thus fan themselves in the ambient air thus they need a fan and not a small circulating type either. Think about it.
JOHN,
As with many things, there is no single definitive right answer to fit every situation. So, your right answer now is put a 12v battery in it and drive it. Your mag don't work and your generator don't work. The ideal situation is to fix everything--but, to fix the mag you pull the motor, and the smart thing would be go through the motor and trans while it's out, and since it's out would be a good time to clean up and paint the frame and various body parts, and so on and so on, until you've spent a lot of time and money doing a total restoration. Let that be your ultimate goal. Until then, do what you have to do to get by. I'd replace the bulbs with 12v bulbs in case you get caught out after dark. Ever so often, put a charger on your battery. Since 1999, my TT has had a 12v battery, temporarily, because the mag didn't work. In that time I've broken only one bendix spring. I eventually cleaned the mag post and it worked some, but not great. I never got around to doing anything about adjusting my generator and one day it slung the winding out of the armature, which eat my fiber timing gear. I fixed the timing gear and left the guts out of my generator. About 6-8 years ago I had coilman rebuild me some coils and, after recharging the magnets in the truck, it started to run good on mag. I've got several T's with no charging systems. A 12v battery will last a long time with daylight driving. Sometimes we, on this forum forget that everyone doesn't have unlimited funds, or time, or mechanical ability, or garage space, tools, etc. Do what best suits your situation and desires. I haven't got around to switching all my cars back to 6v, because I have too many to drive each a lot, and I can usually round up an extra 12v battery from something. Good 6v batteries are harder to find sitting around the shop.