Can an exhaust manifold warp if steel glands and copper rings are used and if the manifold is kept good and tight? I would assume a warp would occur if the manifold clamps were allowed to loosen and if only the flat asbestos gaskets were used without the glands to hold the manifold securely in place over the exhaust ports and the best way to avoid a warp would be to use glands and rings to seal the port connections and to periodically check the clamps to be sure they are good and tight. Jim Patrick
They warp because of those lousy 3 & 1 gaskets.
Macs is selling copies of a one piece copper gasket for each port. They used to make these in the old days. I haven't used one though, but it seems like a good idea.
Larry, I'm not sure what you mean by the "3 & 1 gaskets", but in 2010, during my engine overhaul, I installed the 12 piece manifold gasket set (6 steel glands and 6 copper ring gaskets) with a 2 part gasket for each port and thus far, have incurred no intake or exhaust leaks.
The steel glands fit into grooves machined into the circumference of the ports and manifold openings and serve to align the ports with the manifold openings, holding them securely in place, while serving as a tunnel through which the hot exhaust gases can flow out and intake air can flow in. The copper rings fit over the outside of the glands between the manifold and block and when tightened, compress down and provide a secure seal between the faces of the manifold openings and ports. Jim Patrick
Retarded timing. Set timing correctly after startup.
Jim,
The root cause of the problem is that when poured, castings shrink and when they shrink they are full of compressive stresses. Those stresses just wait to be sprung free by any way possible, one day, one week, one month....100 years.
Old school was to let castings age for 3 seasons to let the stresses anneal naturally before machining and in truth done that way they never warp later.
But in the world where time is money, castings like manifolds were hustled through and cleared the line in less that a shift. Even today they are machined in what is referred to as 'green'.
Like others, Ford figured...bolt it up tight, no where to go!
So yes, loose gaskets today lead to the issues. Had Ford or the others and todays repop guys baked the casting for 4-6 hours at 375-400 Fahrenheit before machining, there would have been no internal stress 'springs' to cause the problems of warped manifolds later.
George. Would it be a good idea to tightly clamp a new, true, just purchased, exhaust manifold (or an original, true, NOS exhaust manifold) flat against a perfectly flat piece of 1" x 6" x 24" flat bar and bake at "400 degrees for 6 hours? If so, after it has been baked, should it be air cooled, or quench cooled in oil? Jim Patrick
I believe it is the weight of the rear part of the manifold and the exhaust pipe which pull the back of the manifold down by gravity. With sleeves in place, The back can't go down nor the center go up and so it will keep it's shape. Without the sleeves, as the manifold heats up it gets more flexible and sags at the back. Then when it cools off it remains out of alignment. Besides creating an exhaust leak, it will also partially block the escape of exhaust gasses and slow down the engine.
Norm
Norm- "BINGO"! I think a warped exhaust manifold is because of a combination of things, but I think the weight of the exhaust pipe pulling downward on a sometimes "red-hot" manifold is the biggest single cause. In fact, I think steel "glands" should always be used on a straight manifold, however, I really believe that the flat gaskets could be successfully used if the weight of the front section of the exhaust pipe (as close to the manifold as practicable) was supported by some sort of accessory brace or bracket could be devised. (I know, I know,.....sorry "purists")
As a couple of the ol' timers on this forum like to say,...."YMMV",........harold
It's not the flat gasket which causes the manifold to sag. It is the lack of sleeves. If you use the flat gasket with the sleeves it will not sag, however, if the surface of the manifold or the block is not smooth and in line, it will leak exhaust more easily than with the rings.
Norm
Norman has nailed it. the manifold must be fitted with the steel gland rings so it cannot shift as it is heated and then cools. Repeated heating and cooling will reduce the stresses and the manifold will "adapt" to its fitted position. Remove the gland rings and it is free to move about.
Gravity may help it to sag at the rear but there is a more common reason for the exhaust pipe to make the manifold warp. When the pipe is offered up to the manifold, the flange must fit closely all around. It you use the big brass nut to pull things together, you will be inducing stresses into the manifold and encouraging warpage.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
My ports are corroded, leaving me the option of using the 3 in 1 gaskets, and the rings. I seem to be endlessly putting those gaskets on, but they don't last.
Is there a way of repairing/machining the ports next time the motor is out?
Jim,
As Norm and Allan point out, it is the car itself that does this annealing in use. The block is like your 'bar'. If the manifold is 'free' to move, it will, if clamped tight it won't. Tight in this means everything...studs, butterflies, glands and rings. They all thermally grow at different rates and 'tight' is what keeps it all together. It adds a new stress all to its own with each thermal cycle when clamped 'tight', but that also cancels itself out with each cycle, provided the parts stay put.
I always use rings, wouldn't do one without it, even when I get an odd-ball that for some reason needs a 3 in 1 fiber (or a part of a 3 in 1 fiber) because of some other problem.
I think most folks err when they look at the copper glands and decide good enough and use them again. You have to think of them as 'crush rings' and they were 'crushed' in one position only. I buy them by the box
The second mistake is that these new ones seem to be a tad 'off' at the port spacing in many cases. I'm not sure its machining error, just the way it all goes. You can make it up when you find that 3rd hand in your pocket at mounting. Many with only 2 hands say what gives and go to the fiber 3 in 1's to get the job done. It 'works' for now but you run the chance for later. I cheat and lather the ports on either the block or the manifold with some grease or with a dab of RTV gasket seal. Still need 3 hands but now the rings go where you want them too and not the other way around.
Finally, tight is not just tight enough. I agree that whatever is happening is happening from the rear so that one I make the butterfly a little tighter on first fire up and then once an engine cycles through really pull down on the others that extra 1/2 turn to have the glands take their final seat. Never get a leaker, never find a bananna the next time it may have to come off. Maybe I'm just lucky.
As to wallowed out ports, my view is you are on your own and agree with the 'need the sleeves' comment. I've done silly things whenever I've found that but always go with a sleeve, no matter what I need to do to get it in even if something else causes the need for a fiber gasket. For those that find the manifold seems to have ports that shrunk, its always baked on 'something' that if worked long enough you can get off. I've been fortunate and never had a block port that was too far gone in the last 40 years and I seem to do 3-5 a year. I did finally have a tough one just last winter where the rear one didn't have much of a c'bore to work with and it just so happened to be on my sons '26. Took a while, and I had to go with the sleeves in the block rather than in the manifold on mounting and that job didn't use the grease glob as the extra hand, used the black stuff. It seated nice, didn't leak, and stayed tight so far, but if I was 'paid' based on time/hour 'standards' I think I would have owed the son money
For Nevin,
Here is a picture of a T which had severely corroded ports and how it was repaired.
The block was first machined to get it as straight as possible, and then the severely corroded ports were machined to accept the specially machined sleeve which was pressed in and held in place by the manifold.
Norm
These gasket rinds appear to be a good answer to this problem, I think the Ameriacan dealers are now supplying them. Made out of straight copper They are made in Brisbane Australia cost $18 for 6.
I am trying them out at the moment will anyone got them installed already?
Sorry for the bad spelling and grammar, was distracted at the wrong time, should also post this photo which will explain more.
Also as mentioned the rings are a must, if you can get solid ones not the sheet metal bent in a circle and obviously your manifold has to be straight first up to get all everything to line up if its warped you won't get all the rings in.
i was thinking about using overhead valves to cure eroded ports.
Peter, I would be interested in knowing which vendors have these...
Nevin, They are on sale on Australian ebay from maker. Bit closer than the USA. I had one lot lost in the post, ask them to make sure they register the mail.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MODEL-T-FORD-ESSEX-COPPER-MANIFOLD-GASKET-FLANGE-/370 322172182?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5638ebe916
I think I will need to order a couple of sets of those copper one piece gland and ring sets from Australia for next time. One thing I don't like about the steel glands is that they have a gap where the two ends join after it has been bent into a circle so as to fit into the port and manifold. Sometimes the gap is larger on some glands than on others depending on the manufacturer and supplier and gasses can escape through the gap, whereas on the Australian type, there is no gap.
George is right about not trying to reuse the copper gasket crush rings. The beauty about them is that, as the manifolds are tightened, the rings crush against the block and manifold port facings and the soft copper crushes to conform to the flat surface surrounding the ports even if they are corroded and pitted. If you remove them and try to re-use them, there is no way to match up the indentations and surface flaws that were pressed into the copper rings the first time around, so they cannot seal around the port as efficiently as they did when first installed. Jim Patrick
One thing you would want to check is to make sure your intake manifold is straight and flat. I have run across a number of these that aren’t, although they look good. You can true them up with a large flat file, or have them milled. Same holds true for the exhaust manifold if you are using an original. If you are using the manifold ring and gland set up, you want to check and make sure you don’t have to take material off the gland ring after you have trued up your manifolds to make sure you have a proper seal. After this is all done, you can also use mega copper high temp silicone gasket sealer. This is recommended for exhaust manifolds. If you can’t find it locally, it is available at Langs. This will help seal minor imperfections in the block.
Larry- are the rings that Peter is showing, are they the ones you were talking about?
Thank you Peter. I just purchased (2) sets on ebay using paypal. When I purchased them they had sold (44) and after my purchase, it shows (46) were sold. It says there are more than (10) sets remaining, but I assume that once these are sold, they may have to do another production run before more are available, so if you want some, you'd might want to get them now, for once these are gone, who knows when more might be available. Jim Patrick
Yes Dan, those are the ones. Macs has them, Langs does not. I have some old stock ones here, and I think they were made by Fitzgerald.
Jim P., the gap in the steel glands don't make any difference, all they do is hold the manifolds in alignment. The copper crush rings that go between the manifolds and the block do the sealing. If you have a leak, there is a problem with them, or the gland rings are too long, not allowing the manifolds to seat, as was mentioned. Dave
Bought a set of those solid copper one piece glands, but didn't work as well as expected. Couldn't get the copper to crush, think since it is cold formed, the copper gland becomes hardened and too stiff.
If soft, then they would crush to shape, and that would be a good idea. For me they just kept the manifold standing off the block as they would not crush.
Solid copper on right, repro Ford gland and ring on left, messed up, so tried the solid copper, but wouldn't collapse and seal well.
Dan. looks like the gland is still in great shape, copper is easy to soften so if you annealed them they should be OK it can't hurt them. Maybe after they were hot when the engine was started a bit more tension on the nuts would have helped I also used silicone around them to help especially on the intake.
Peter. I will be receiving two sets of (6) each of the one piece gland and ring sets. What would be the proper procedure for annealing copper so as to soften them up enough to crush properly?
Thank you David. I have no problem with the gland gaps leaking on my engine as the copper crush rings seal my manifolds fine, since the port faces were resurfaced by George King III during my overhaul, however, that may not be the case on a pitted block whereby the crush ring was unable to crush enough to completely seal around the gland allowing the gases to escape through the gap. In this case, the gland gap is an unnecessary avenue of leakage that would not occur, if the glands were seamless, which appears to be remedied by the one piece copper gland and ring sets. Jim Patrick
Jim, we anneal the copper sealing rings for spark plugs in our airplanes by heating until red with a propane torch and quenching in water.
Jim, Jerry got there first- as he says heat to red hot and quench in water. I think if you have pitting, each time you remove them just anneal again and put back on.
I don't doubt what you say, but doesn't quenching in water make the metal (any metal) brittle? Would it not be more advisable to quench cherry red metal in oil? Thank you. Jim Patrick
Rules for copper and silver differ, water is correct or you can just let it cool.
Oil or water cooling for steel different story.
If the goal is to soften the copper, I would be more inclined to heat to cherry red and let it cool without quenching, but again, I'm using steel as the basis for my assumptions. What say you all. Jim Patrick
Heating and air cooling copper hardens it.
Heat and quenching copper softens it.
I was told water was the way to go and have always done it that way but letting it cool also works, knew a guy who was a professional brass instrument repairer ( forgot to mention brass is in the same boat) and also worked with tradesmen who had lots of experience with it, helped a lot when I was restoring brass.
According to a google search- cooling by air is good as well. You don't have to heat it red hot if it is thin (brass, copper) as you risk it buckling or worse blowing a hole in it. There are a few ways to see if the temp is enough, the easy way is to rub soap on the area heat and when it turns black let it cool. There are others which also are used. including acetylene soot.
These metals get hard by being worked, (hammered or bent,) Whatever way you go whether its advice from the forum or elsewhere do a test on something before you lay into something valuable.
Interesting thread. I had trouble with the steel glands after a short period of time so I searched around and found some hard copper tubing, like water pipe, that is 1 1/4" od. It fit perfectly in the block ports. Had to experiment a bit on length but finally got it. As I recall it was a bit less than 5/16". I tried to match the steel glands. I put them in along with the copper rings and have had no further problem. I figure the copper is flexible enough to help compensate for any warp in the manifold as well. Just my thoughts.