'22 touring firewall

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: '22 touring firewall
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 09:43 pm:

Taking the motor out to replace the driven plate and it doesn't look like I'll be able to get the pedals out from behind the firewall. This does not look like other firewalls I've seen and am wondering if it was homemade or some aftermarket wall. I'm trying to take it off but even with all the bolts out its seems to be pretty solid. Anything I'm missing? The lower brackets are still attached in the photo, But they are off the car now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 10:21 pm:

Is your car an original T or a speedster or what year T or? Cant tell exactly by the photo.
The firewall looks like a homemade or modified from?? Not a standard T firewall. A Model T firewall is fairly easy to find. If your car is a pretty much original unmodified car I would get the correct firwall for it.
Almost all Model T"s engines can be removed from a T with the original firewall by simply tilting the engine up to clear the pedals from under the firewall. Without removing the firewall.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 10:26 pm:

Its a '22 touring. Bone stock, more original the better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 12:08 am:

This is what it looks like;
http://www.modeltford.com/item/3634H.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 10:25 am:

I would get the firewall as mentioned above then remove the one you have now. Remove the engine and repair then reinstall the engine and then install the new firwall.
It is a litttle easier to remove the engine when the firewall is removed first but its not necessary.
Now is the time to get things right. Just curious but is your car a 3 piece back or a 5 piece back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 10:38 am:

If you are a purist, I would say change it. I do not do shows, so if it was me I would use it. Also it can not be seen unless you have the hood up.
The only cars I try to keep correct are the rare ones like the early brass ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 10:43 am:

It appears as though someone made a new firewall and didn't want to pull the steering column in order to install it so notched out everything to thus be able to insert it from the top down. I would get a correct firewall and put it on as part of the job you are doing since it is easier now than later when the whole car is together. Your mileage may vary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 12:19 pm:

There is not much support for the steering column as it now stands, every time you turn the steering wheel it puts a lot of tension on the thin area where the column is bolted to it. That leg sticking down might vibrate a lot and the hole for the engine is very large. If it were mine I would at least make a new one that gave better support to the cowl area. There is a bit of weight hanging off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 03:32 pm:

John what do you mean a 3 piece or 5 piece back?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 03:35 pm:

Also, for the 2nd part of my question, am i missing how I get the firewall off? I took off all the bolts, and the lower brackets that are still on in the picture, but still cant budge it. Could it be the cowl lacing is nailed into it through the metal part above the fire wall, or does that piece come off with the firewall?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 05:20 pm:

Pat,

Note, the original firewall was assembled complete with coil box, wiring, commutator (timer) and steering column, and firewall brackets etc. and that assembly was placed onto the chassis. (ref Trent Boggess article “Assembling the Model T: 1923 – 1925” part II, page 14 of the Jul – Aug 1997 “Vintage Ford” That subassembly was installed on the chassis and then the body was installed. A couple of things come to mind. For the brackets that attach the firewall to the frame of the car, if you removed the bolts through the firewall but not the one holding the brackets to the frame, there is a possibility that the body is pushing firmly against the dash pushing them against the brackets and preventing the firewall from coming free. You may want to remove the bolts holding the brackets to the frame. Be sure to label the brackets as they will fit on either side but only fit correctly one way (or reinstall the bracket after the firewall is removed etc.).

Also this assumes you have removed the four nuts and bolts that are often found at the top of the firewall on 1919 and later cars. Thank you Phil Mino for the photo below that shows where the four bolts would come out on the firewall side.



For additional photos and details please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/219768.html?1308966964 and it also documents that the Ford drawing for the dash/firewall was updated on Jun 4, 1919 to include the additional two holes (thank you John Regan for documenting that for us.)
Note the previous owner may have added wood screws through that cowl section also.

Finally – that area can tend to leak when it is raining (or even when you wash the car). One way to solve that leak is when you install your new firewall is to coat the metal part of the cowl with roofing cement. [for over kill they could have put the roofing cement on front wooden body skeleton where it meets the wooden firewall. No water would leak in there anyway – but it could have been they wanted to use up all the roofing cement on the brush.] Bolt dash to the body and frame and let it dry. It can make a really good seal. However – if you try to remove the firewall at a later time – it can make it more difficult. And of course it could just be paint that has run down between the cowl and the firewall that is also tending to glue it to the body.

Good luck and please keep us posted on what you discover.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 05:37 pm:

Pat, it may be that whoever installed that firewall used silicone as a sealant to keep water getting between the firewall and cowl and then on the coilbox. If so it can be a real bugger to break that seal. If you go to an original style firewall, you will be able to do some damage to that one to help with its removal.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 06:09 pm:

Pat,

The touring body from 1915 to 1921 had a rear seat section made up from 5 body panels. [Truth in typing – the 1913 and 1914 bodies also had a 5 piece rear section but those do not look exactly correct if you try to fit them to a 1915-1921 car.] Each quarter panel was made from two panels and there was a single rear panel as shown below. Photo courtesy of Bruce McCalley (RIP) [taken from his excellent “Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia” CD (used by permission) which is available from: http://www.modelt.org/index.php?option=com_aclassf&Itemid=17&ct=veh3&md=details&id=211 ] Shown below photo is taken from his book, typical 1915-1920 style rear seat area – 5 panels, wide arm rest (late 1916 and on had a metal cap), top rest comes down from the top of the seat, and there is a bead that follows the rear fender.





Above is the photo of the rear body section introduced in 1921 and continued through 1925. It was a redesigned touring body that looked very similar to the previous bodies. The rear seat section now was made up of only three panels as shown below. Note also the top rest bracket comes out through the side of the panel rather than down from the top of the seat. That rear seat area is interchangeable 1921-1925 (the front cowl became a high cowl for the 1924 models so while the bodies for 1921-23 will not line up with the hood and radiator of the 1924 model year (introduced in 1923) cars, the rear tub will interchange just fine.

I’m not sure why John Kuehn asked that question, but some of us, myself included are trying to get a better idea of how much overlap occurred when both the earlier 5 piece rear section bodies and the later 3 piece rear section bodies were used simultaneously by the different Ford branches etc. For additional details on the differences between the 1920 and the changed 1921 body please see: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/A-B.htm and scroll down to 1920 and 1921 body descriptions.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 07:43 pm:

It is a 3 piece rear. You might be n to something with some sort of sealant sticking the firewall in place. I completely removed the passenger side lower bracket (couldnt get to the drivers side with the starter in the way) and all the bolts that are in the picture above. No movement at all, thinking of getting a bigger hammer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 08:17 pm:

Pat,

A putty knife and or a carpet knife can sometimes help cut through sealant etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 08:49 pm:

Pat

Remove the wiring and then cut off that part of the firewall between the engine and steering column. Remove the engine and then deal with attempting to remove the old firewall.

A new firewall can easily be made out of plywood if you do not want to pay the vendors for one. I used my old firewall to make a pattern that I altered and then cut the new one. Worked great.

Best of luck to you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 09:09 pm:

Got it off. It was stuck with sealant. Just needed a bigger hammer. Thanks all


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 09:20 pm:

Pat:

When you put things back together I noticed in your picture of the firewall that there were some wrong connections (color wise) at the firewall terminal strip. You might want to trace out the wiring when you put it all back together. The magneto wire is typically connected to terminal number 2 (counting left to right) and it is a red wire. I notice on your terminal block that the red wire is connected to terminal number 3. Might trace electrically OK but you would be best to make it totally stock to help any future mechanic from not accidentally crossing the magneto wire to either of the battery connections (normally 1 and 3). You can visually check the wires in a very short time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 02:18 pm:

Hap, thanks for the information! The photo you posted of the differences between the touring rear sections help a lot. The reason I asked the question if the car was a 5 or 3 piece back was there any small or minor differences.
Or at least that was on my mind.
The earlier low cowl 15-21 photo shows something I was wondering about.
I am building a 5 piece 21 mid year touring and in process of fitting the rear doors.
I was trying to align the doors going by the raised beading on the sheet metal on the rear section.
In other words aligning the beading to be in a straight line
Looking at the earlier photo the door was about half or more lower than the beading on the rear setion!
Difference in body makers or??
If I go by the photo that would be correct?
My doors seem to line up that way.
I was thinking I had something not right but Now I wonder.
The later photo shows the door and rear section almost in alignment.
I hope I am right as I was beginning to wonder.
Thanks Hap for any info.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 02:30 pm:

CORRECTION ON THE ABOVE POST!
I meant to say the door is HIGHER than the rear section!
That is the way the doors seem to align on my 21 5 piece low cowl touring rebuild.
The earlier cars seem to have the doors above the beading alignment on the rear section.
Thats the way it appears to me anyway in the photo. The later 3 piece body photo are in alignment.
Any help on this would be appreciated.
I was thinking that the doors were inlign with the rear section regardless of 3 or 5 piece back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 03:05 am:

I don't know, there's something funny about how his firewall is sitting, it looks too far back. Mine actually sets over the rear head bolts, but then mine has a really large curve just like that catalog picture.



As you can see it sits about 2 inches in front of the Hogshead and starter. His is sitting right on top of both.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 11:32 am:

Martin, Its just an illusion the way the picture is taken, and the difference in shape of the firewall relative to yours. The rear head bolts are directly below the firewall opening on the car and the back of the firewall is about flush with the starter mounting plate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 11:39 am:

One more question while taking the motor out. When I disconnect the wishbone from the oil pan do I have to support it to keep from distorting anything in the front axle or is it OK to just let it drop.


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