Questions about the 2 lever Model T

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Questions about the 2 lever Model T
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 12:37 pm:

How many 2 lever Model T's are in existence? Were they all prototypes made in 1908, or were some made in 1909? What would have been their engine numbers and are those numbers part of the 15,000,000 plus Model T run or are they separate?

The traditional single lever is a combination lever for the emergency brake and for putting AND holding the clutch in neutral. I assume that, on the 2 lever model, one of the levers was for engaging the rear emergency brake drums and the other was for holding the clutch in neutral. If this is accurate, how would these levers have been used in concert with eachother for stopping and starting and when was it realized that these 2 levers could be more efficiently combined into one lever? Thank you. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Pitts on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 01:05 pm:

I think one lever was for reverse.The other was for neutral and parking brake.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 01:12 pm:

The first 750 1909 (approximately) cars used the two pedal, two lever system. One of the levers was the rear brake; the other operated the neutral and reverse gear. At about number 750 the three pedal system began to be used and three pedals became standard. Pedals were marked with “C,” “R,” and “B.”
http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1909.htm

There is probably more then you ever wanted to know about the early 2 pedal - 2 lever cars at:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/239346.html?1323849406

And 1909 two lever tow peddle at:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/35743.html

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 01:14 pm:

Steve's about right. The emerg. brake handle acted "normally" and the second lever was replaced by the reverse pedal on the floor. There were how many made? Some thing like 1500? Ford came out with a $15.00 modification for the 2-lever and wanted the old parts back if I remember correctly. How many are left. Don't know but I understand the 2-lever at the Ford Museum has a reverse lever that was made in house because they couldn't find a real one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 01:30 pm:

There's one at the former Towe Museum in Sacto, and two in private collections I've seen here in Socalif.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 04:08 pm:

All the 2 lever cars were built prior to Nov 1908.Of the 500 built about 10 exist.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 04:22 pm:

Did all the 2 lever's have sheet metal "Hogs Head's"?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 04:35 pm:

Are you sure Royce? Most stats put the number of T's for 1908 as 309 built.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 05:57 pm:

I'm not sure anyone knows for sure just how many 2-lever types were built or when the true cut-off date occurred. Then there were the 'conversion kits' available to make them 'normal' if one desired.

Bruce was willing to round it at 500 with nothing to actually support that number claiming some had reason to suspect more, some less.

All I know is that any '09 looks great, and when you do see a real 2-lever there is something that is not just reverence but rather outright awe.

I'm not near where I can check, but I do believe someone from the upper mid-west (Minnesota perhaps?) did a painstaking restoration of an early/early maybe 4 years ago or so. I seem to recall that it was originally a 2-lever, converted to 3-pedal, and in the resto it was converted back using original factory drawings to make the parts. Perhaps someone knows more details on it?





ORIGINAL T DETAILS.png


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 06:01 pm:

I'm not sure anyone knows for sure just how many 2-lever types were built or when the true cut-off date occurred. Then there were the 'conversion kits' available to make them 'normal' if one desired.

Bruce was willing to round it at 500 with nothing to actually support that number claiming some had reason to suspect more, some less.

All I know is that any '09 looks great, and when you do see a real 2-lever there is something that is not just reverence but rather outright awe.

I'm not near where I can check, but I do believe someone from the upper mid-west (Minnesota perhaps?) did a painstaking restoration of an early/early maybe 4 years ago or so. I seem to recall that it was originally a 2-lever, converted to 3-pedal, and in the resto it was converted back using original factory drawings to make the parts. Perhaps someone knows more details on it?






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 06:03 pm:

Danged...hate it when it echos back cgi-bin error...never know if it made it or not and then tends to double post...sorry!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 06:06 pm:

Kinda off topic, but the picture made me think about the drawing in the MTFCA Transmission Manual. Ford did design a 3-speed transmission. Does anyone know how the pedals worked in that one?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 06:14 pm:

There is an older list of early 1909 serial numbered Model T Fords. There are about 30 (I do believe) 1909 Model Ts in existence that are or were two lever Ts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Manuel Voyages, ACT Australia on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 06:22 pm:

I have had trouble with some of my replies today as well George.

Manuel in Oz


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 07:15 pm:

I've also heard 500 up to 700 two lever two pedals. Part of the problem is Ford offered a conversion so I suspect quite a few two pedal cars were "upgraded" early in their "life".

Yes, 309 is the number used for 09s built before Jan 09.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 07:18 pm:

I would like to know, too, Jim Kelsey. I just haven't had the patience to read through this patent, which was no doubt researched provided by the great Art Bell:

3spdPatWatson (Medium).JPG


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 07:21 pm:

Try again on the pic:



3spdPatWatson (Medium).JPG

The Forum appears headed for vapor lock.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 07:25 pm:

Late September 1908 article about the "new" Ford Model T. Notice the much "beefier" rear end, more like the Models NRS.

372986372.541317.jpg

372986553.579790.jpg

372986608.478211.jpg


372986686.424618.jpg


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lee Crenshaw Richmond Va. on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 08:40 pm:

There were about 900 early 2 lever cars with the water pump engine. My Grandfather purchased the first Model T in Richmond, Va. The serial number is 839 and the car resides today at the Henry Ford Museum. My late wife and I were priveledged to have been invited to the 100th anniversary celebration held during the 2008 Old Car Festival. We rode in the car past the reviewing stand. What a lasting memory this created for an old T guy.
Lee


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 08:47 pm:

Interesting. I've been working on 904 a lot lately. It is a three pedal car and has very few reproduction parts. The transmission shaft is stamped with a November 1908 date.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 12:13 am:

#685 is an original 2-pedal 2 lever car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 06:16 am:

Royce,

904 would have definately been a 3 pedal by all accounts I've ever heard.

As to the Nov 08 stamp date on the shaft...that wouldn't concern me either.

The first 2500 sets of running gear were ordered as 'blanket' orders to the suppliers with a 90 day delivery date. In theory that would mean on January 1, 1909 Ford would have had the parts for the first 2500 on hand or 'available'. It also seems that some major changes in other areas occured at 750...so I have concluded that vendors were probably shipping in batches at a 250 clip, maybe in 50's even. The disasters had to be done on the fly changes I guess.

T826-C was drawn on 12-12-08. This was the cast aluminum trans '09 hogshead, so the decision that the prior two versions had issues apparently popped to the surface really quick! A factory letter dated 12-19-08 says the 3-pedal are 'under production'. That could just mean approved for release, who knows.

Nicholas,

I'm not sure there is a bona-fide proof, but it has always been accepted that all 2-lever had the stamped housing. Somewhere a long time ago, I read some original anecdotal evidence that the real twisty was when someone tried a lever AND a pedal at the same time. Didn't say what lever...but I think we can deduce which one. I've never had the time to look at the mechanical advantage of the lever brake assembly v. the brake pedal, but suspect that may have been a contributor and they just killed 2 birds with one stone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 08:47 am:

This one was at Hershey this year. Was it real or repo?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 09:09 am:

Mike,

That's #131. It has an interesting history and is now owned by a father/son from New Jersey. Beautiful car.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 09:22 am:

Mike,

More from a thread that discussed #131 at Hershey a few years ago. A former Harrahs car, it sounds like a mostly original car. A gaining, a stunning example of a 1908 built toe lever two pedal T

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/109228.html?1255192769


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 11:49 am:

Now I'm wondering where I got that 1500 business from. 2 Numbers actually: 1500 and 2500. I thought they represented: (1500) 2-lever cars and (2500) water pump cars. I know I read this somewhere. Not insisting, just wondering.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 11:56 am:

Found it. (and got it wrong). Floyd Clymer's book says the 2500 is water pumps and he states the first 1000 (not 1500) had the 2-lever system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 12:35 pm:

Charlie,

I used to think 750 2 lever 2 pedal cars and 2500 water pump cars. We have 1909 # 2507, and so far I've not come across an earlier 1909 production (non waterpump) T.

The truth probably lies (is that an oxymoron?) somewhere in between, especially with Fords common sense approach not to waste parts.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 12:39 pm:

That's funny Rob. Agree that the use what's on the shelf system + cloudy records from the early days help muddy the actual #'s. Even Clymer wonders (in the book) how many 2-levers exist and the book is 60 years old.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 07:10 pm:

Wow! Beautiful! That '08 makes my mouth water. It's great to know that such an outstanding restoration exists and is so well cared for. For insurance purposes, as a documented original, unconverted, 2 lever, 2 pedal T, would you guestimate it's worth at somewhere around $75,000.00 to $100,000.00?

Were the levers on all brass era cars brass like the ones on #131? I always thought the levers were steel. When did Ford switch from brass to steel levers? Are the brass pedal openings and lever opening trim original? They appear to be precision machined and secured with oval slot headed screws...Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 07:28 pm:

There was a mother-in-law roadster at the Rolling Iron Show at Allaire State Park in New Jersey back in August. Motor number 2513. It was 3 pedals and did NOT have a built-in water pump. It did however, have an external accessory water pump.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 07:32 pm:

When the assembly line was developed by Ford, the Model T's were brought to the workers instead of the other way around. If the appearance of 131 is any indication of the beauty and fine workmanship inherent in the first Model T's, it appears that they were handmade by craftsmen who all worked on a stationary car, so that much more care and pride were put into the early pre mass produced T's. Would #131 and all the other 2 lever T's, have been made at the Piquette Plant? Anyone have any idea what the number of the first mass produced T was (the first post Piquette Plant car). Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 09:06 pm:

Jim,

January 1, 1910 was the transfer date to Highland so the first 15 month of T were all at the other.

Interesting sidebar...most don't know it, but Highland originally was laid out with continued R & S production in mind with no mention of the 'T'. Sort of wonder if they wondered too...lol


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 09:12 pm:

I thought the early levers were brass plated "Yes/No"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 10:15 pm:

The shipping documents contain excellent information on when the water pump engines stopped and when the thermo syphon engines started. And yes, like most Ford items there was some overlap. Unfortunately the shipping documents are not available for the cars #2 through 1,118 and of course that was the time frame they moved from the two lever two pedal design to the single lever three pedal design.

On page 480 of his book and also in his "Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia" [available at: http://www.modelt.org/index.php?option=com_aclassf&Itemid=17&ct=veh3&md=details& id=211 ]
from the shipping documents Bruce listed the following:

2,448 was the first thermo-syphon engine and was assembled into touring on Apr 22, 1909
2,455 was the second thermo-syphon engine and was assembled into a roadster May 1, 1909
2,456 was the third thermo syphon engine and was assembled into a roadster May 5, 1909
2,500 was also a Thermo-syphon engine (he did not comment on if it was number four or five or what number it was) placed in roadster May 4

Note that the cars were assembled at work stations by crews and that sometimes as in the case of 2,500 it was placed into a car on May 4 one day before engine number 2,456 was placed into a car on May 5.

A review of the shipping documents between 2.456 and 2,520 would probably document what was the last water pump serial number and when was it put into a car. The engines between 2,448 and 2,456 with the exception of 2,455 would have been water pump engines. Between 2,456 and 2,500 if Bruce had added “Fourth water pump engine” to number 2,500 we would know those were also all water pump engines but instead he only used the term “Thermo-syphon.” Note Bruce did not mention Thermo-syphon again in his listing which could imply all the engines from 2,500 on were water pump engines – but again if we checked the shipping documents we should be able to confirm that assumption, correct it, or state that the documents are not legible or that it was not noted on the documents.

For Nicholas – yes the emergency brake and the reverse lever as well as spark and gas levers were brass plated. Reference: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/A-B.htm#brake1

BRAKE LEVER
(and Trim Plates)
1909-1910
Lever was steel, brass-plated. Clutch cam was forged steel. Trim plates on floorboard were brass, or brass-plated steel.
1911-1915
Lever was steel, painted black but otherwise similar to 1910. Trim plates black steel after sometime in 1911 or 1912.

http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1909.htm STEERING COLUMN ASSEMBLY: Brass quadrant, brass-plated spark and throttle levers, with hard-rubber knobs.

This is a fascinating subject. If folks have the additional time, I would encourage you to please list any references you are using. It might possibly help in future searches and research. I.e. giving us additional leads on where to look etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 12:02 am:

I have kept track of all the 2 lever cars I could find information for the last 20 years. I count about 33 cars from #2 to #839. some are complete reproduction cars, some are engines only and some that were known in the 1960's have just disappeared.
C H Wills in the drafting department at Ford Motor Company, stated in various updates on 2 lever parts that most were to only be used on the first 500 and 750 cars. I suspect that there were only a few cars after car #750 that were made with the 2 lever control system. The only documented car above #750 is #838 which has a very interesting history as related by Lee Crenshaw.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 12:08 am:

Kim,

Did I see something once that indicated waterpump replacement engines were as late as 1914 From Ford?

I think we both know of one unstamped (no number) waterpump engine, that I assume was a replacement motor.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 01:01 am:

Nicolas-

There is no documented evidence that all two-lever cars had anything but stamped sheet metal transmission covers. That being said, car #220, a two lever car, has a cast aluminum transmission cover.

Was it made by Ford or an enthusiastic restorer who wanted to make a beefier transmission cover that would not flex when stomping on the pedals?

???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 09:54 am:

Magneto / flywheel assy from 904. I believe this is the earliest known 3 pedal car. It does not show any signs of having been converted from a 2 lever / 2 pedal car.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 12:39 pm:

Royce-
I find the numbers interesting.
Do you suppose the engine assembly date is 10/28 .08

and the date the transmission was attached and all bottoned up on 11 10.08?

Nice pics!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 04:17 pm:

Probably so. The earlier date is from one machining operation, the later date from final assembly.

Virtually every part of this car is different from cars Ford built a couple months later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 07:33 pm:

The photo of #131 shows a coilbox with the high tension wires coming out underneath the box as with the earlier models N, R, and S. Somehow it's been accepted that this was correct on the earliest Ts, but I've learned that it isn't supported by Archival evidence.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 11:33 pm:

Interesting article about the 1908 Ford Model T, Horseless Age, Oct 1908. I'm not sure of the coil box, but another article showing NRS style rear end. Looks as though Ford intended to continue with the NRS type differential (as they should have) instead of tHe "weaker" clamshell. (Also, as of this Oct publication, Ford is expected to continue with their N/S roadsters. And why not, they are the best selling car in the US at this point).

Notice the American Locomotive on the last page. It has something for everyone, with a front and rear seat and mother in law seat. Even with a front and rear seat, the mother in law or kid is still stuck in back.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 11:48 pm:

Also interesting, the Model T had made a large enough "splash" that this aftermarket source is selling tops for the Model T in this December 1908 ad in the Cycle and Automobile Trade Journal. And this is before 309 Models are sold (estimated number of Ts built through December 1908).



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 06:47 am:

Interesting that the ad says (Duplicate of Ford Factory Top) when Ford did not make any tops at its factory!

The top does look sorta similar to the one on 904:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 07:37 am:

Seeing all of the time consuming, hand done, safety wire of the magnets and flywheel in Royce's pictures of #904, it is interesting to compare that with later assembly line T's and see the evolution of the model T that abandoned time consuming hand done procedures, in favor of more efficient, assembly line friendly production procedures, such as re-designing the curved magnets and adopting the magnet clamps and countersunk clamp screws. While changes like this and visible changes like painting the cars in just one color (black) instead of three (red, green and gray) exchanged workmanship for efficiency, the results of which were that, instead of thousands, millions of Model T's were made, which made the car affordable to the common man and benefitted mankind.

What other time consuming methods were used on early handmade T's that were abandoned on later mass produced T's for more time efficient methods? Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 04:44 pm:

Forgive my ignorance on such early 'T's. I thought the transmission cover was a change over, the handbrake would be dropped and a new one bolted in its place and new floor boards supplied. Would the quadrant also be changed?

Just interested to know what to look for if it has been converted to 3 pedal? Royce wrote "I believe this is the earliest known 3 pedal car. It does not show any signs of having been converted from a 2 lever / 2 pedal car."

I am not doubting this in any way, but what evidence are we looking for?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 10:00 pm:

Royce, thanks for posting that picture of Ardeens stub shaft. Mine has two dates also. I thought it might have been re stamped because of some kind of update.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 07:01 am:

David,

This car (unlike most 1909's) has its original splash aprons, body and fenders. If it had been a 2 lever car originally the brake ratchet (quadrant?) would be different and would have been changed. This car has the early "fish plate" frame and all the rivets, including the hand brake ratchet, appear to be unmolested.

This is the 2 lever car at Hershey:



This is 904. Notice the cam on the brake shaft, it is different than later ones, a unique part to the early cars:


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