I bought a LIzard Head at Hershey and made it work

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: I bought a LIzard Head at Hershey and made it work
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willard Revaz on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 02:45 pm:

At Hershey this year my father purchased a Lizard head and after the purchase many people said it was a problem head. Spark knocking, poor casting, and not easy to make perform well. Last weekend I removed my Waukesha and installed this head. My car ran very well with the Waukesha and had many miles on it, so I knew if there were going to be any problems it would be the Lizard head. I was running an Anderson timer on mag. with very good coils. I started the car, advanced the spark to normal position (9 o'clock) and went for a ride. At first it was sluggish and seemed like it was running on 2 or 3 cylinders. When I advanced the spark it got worse. The car would not go above 30 MPH and if I switched to battery, it would slow down to 22 MPH. If I tried to go faster it seemed like the block was going to split. I nursed it home and thought everybody was right and this head would work better as a paper weight, but I was determined to make it work. I talked to some very technical people, which had some ideas and also led me to the designer. He said that "the head is super sensitive to advance and retard and may knock if RPM and advance are not matched correctly. . . using the Model-T spark lever is too difficult and less precise." He also said "It requires a distributor with centrifugal advance and a hot coil, either points or electronic, with the proper advance curve to run correctly." That statement made me think of another timer that might work. My only concern was if the T coils would produce a hot enough spark. I removed the Anderson timer and installed the other timer, started the car up, advanced the spark and noticed that it did not skip or miss-fire. I went for a ride and it started to pull very well, made it up to 30 with no problem and continued to accelerate to 35. I drove like this for a couple of miles, listening for any knocking or funny noises. It seemed OK, so I pulled the gas down and went to 40, another couple of miles with no problems. It still sounded good. I pulled the gas again and this time it really took off. I went right to 45 and left it there for another few miles. It was like driving my couch down the road. I could not believe it. The power that this head had. I had a grin on from ear to ear. I couldn’t wait to get home to call and tell my father that I made it work. Once I got home after a 25 mile run I was waiting for it to boil over, but it did not. I idled it down, no bubbling or gurgling. Now I was pleased and happy to make it work and not be a paper weight.
Now you are wondering how did I make it work without a distributor? I installed an E-timer, which has the proper advance curve to match RPM and precise timing. I want thank Mike Kosser for making such a magnificent modern tool for the Model-T to make performance the best it can be.



Dave Revaz
Stuart, Florida


Lazzard Head


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 03:03 pm:

Gee, it does work !!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 03:16 pm:

Willard, I had a Lizard head that didn't have any leaks, warps, or other issues. My car has a .280 Sipe cam and Anderson timer. I liked my lizard to about 40 mph, then it knocked when I needed to advance timing to go further. 22.5 degrees is too much of a change for this head and it knocked. I tried running 12 and even 18 volt battery ignition and didn't find where it ran significantly better. I thought about trying to redrill the spark plug holes between the valves instead of over the piston but that would be through the water jacket and wouldn't work. I believe it had more power at low end than my Z head and it ran great to about 40. I'm glad you got it running better. I liked the head but didn't think it would work with my system, but agree that it likely would with a distributor. I sold my head at one of the national tour youth auctions. I sincerely hope the new owner gets it running as well as you have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 05:39 pm:

Let me get this straight. You bought a $400 E-timer so you could use a $50 head?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 06:17 pm:

He did make it work...... while others had problems with the Lizard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 06:59 pm:

That's the way it is with most modifications. If you change one thing, you also need to change something else. With the car going 45 or more MPH, you might need some modifications to the steering and brakes. Be careful! This could be a good combination for a speedster.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willard Revaz on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 08:54 pm:

I already had the E-timer on another car. The swap didn't cost anything.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 09:23 pm:

Willard, I'm glad you got it running well. I had it running up to a tad over 40 in a touring before I had trouble with pinging as I tried to go for more spark advance. I'm interested in your progress. I agree that it might be a good speedster head if you had more variable timing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 12:15 am:

My stock 24 touring has no trouble turning 45 mph and 50 or so top end. In my view, unless you strengthen the bottom end and add 4 wheel brakes, there is not much good to come from souping up the Model T engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 12:28 am:

Good tinkering there, Willard :-)
How about better hill climbing performance, Ted?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 12:57 am:

A rich mixture ignites easier than a lean mixture. That's why the spark is located near the intake valve in all successful engines. The Lizard has the disadvantage of lean mixture, mixed with residual exhaust gas where its spark is located. The rush of cool air past the sparkplug in the standard T head helps avoid pre-ignition, too, which the Lizard lacks. As soon as I saw the Lizard layout, I knew it would be a loser.

A hotter spark should reduce misfires, which is probably what the E-timer is doing. A disturbutor with a hot coil should be able to do that, too. A colder sparkplug may help.

I don't know what the designer had in mind, but he must not have had the knowledge needed for this project.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 02:45 am:

What if you put extra spark plugs over the intake valves and added extra coils would it help?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 06:38 am:

I am disappointed that you conclude the E Timer cured your problem Willard. The E timer does not do anything a properly tuned Anderson or other timer does. It simply triggers spark at an appropriate time, if installed correctly.

The only way it would cure an ignition problem that you describe would be if the timing was maladjusted on the Anco timer in the first place, or you had loose wiring, or dirty contacts in the timer.

Ultimately the E timer is a liability because now your T will be inoperative when your battery fails some day. You won't be able to drive on MAG.

The built in feature that made a Model T better than all the other cars of its era is now rendered useless by the E timer, and you paid $400 + for the privilege, which astounds me Willard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 08:16 am:

Silliness.

Flat battery = recharge.
Flat magneto = engine teardown - or run on battery.

M. Kossor showed the E-timer will run on a 9v transistor radio battery. Carry a spare in your shirt pocket.

The Model T magneto was just an expensive way to avoid paying patent royalties on a self contained high tension magneto, or an Atwater-Kent disturbutor.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 08:39 am:

I always pass on the lizard heads when I see them at swap meets. I never really understood how a head project could end up going so wrong that it was eventually scrapped. Ive heard so many different stories of why, but what do you think was the overlying cause for so many failures reported?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 11:04 am:

I do understand the reasoning for wanting to keep things original, but I don't really get the dead battery argument for E-timers...

Any good battery should be able to run an E-timer all day if your charging system is inoperable or your T doesn't have one, and if you do have an operable charging system, then there shouldn't be any problem at all.

If leaving the lights on, or the reliability of batteries is the reason for concern, then modern cars would have those same concerns. Our 2004 Bonneville would be inoperable with a dead battery too, but in 8 years and 175,000 miles, it has never once failed us.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 11:23 am:

Note that the photo of the magnetos in the pictures above were for the Ford N R & S. They had dry cell ignition. The T with its built in power supply ended the problem of having to have a set of dry cells with power enough to run the ignition system. I'm willing to bet more cars stalled due to depleted dry cells than any other problems in the day. Unless there was a phone system in the area where the Ford was, the local store might not even carry them as they would go bad setting on the shelf. The Ford magneto was the wonder of the automotive world in 1908. It cost nothing to run as opposed to dry cells that even then cost considerable cash money.

I believe it was me that named the Lizard head YAPP CRAPP in tribute to the maker, Charlie Yapp. I bought three of them, $1200 worth plus $120 shipping, two leaked, none had steam holes and blew head gaskets until we drilled the steam holes, they leaked around the head gasket because they were not flat, none would run on coils and timer worth a damn, not much better on the Stoltz distributor I bought to try to get it to run better and the warranty was worthless. No wonder they quit making them. (The warranty by the way was "Sell it on ebay and get your money back.")


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 11:33 am:

Roger,

My Ruckstell takes care of the hills.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 12:20 pm:

What's wrong with a high tension magneto, Stan? The K has one. You never need a battery with it, and if it has an impulse coupling, it puts out a terrific spark at hand cranking speed, what you can't do with the T low tension magneto.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 12:35 pm:

Ralph,

If I may, I believe Stan was bemoaning the days of dry cells and how the T ended that trouble. He didn't say there was anything wrong with a high tension mag.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 12:40 pm:

Ralph - while it may be possible to fit an impulse coupling with a magneto for a Model K, they did not come from the factory with one, nor have I seen one in use with a Model K.

I do agree, however, that if one were to install an impulse coupling, it would make it much easier to start the Model K on mag on only. Since my K does not have an impulse coupling I typically start it with both the battery / coil system as well as the mag engaged. Once the engine has run steady for a minute or so I disengage the battery system so as to save it for future starts.

Timothy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willard Revaz on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 01:19 pm:

Thanks fellas for all your comments, both Pro and Con regarding my efforts in taming the Lizard. My intent in posting my experience with the Lizard head was to verify, by your remarks, what others experienced with this high compression head.

I like to try whatever aftermarket accessories are available for the Model-T and see what they do or don't do. I was advised before my purchase that it would be a challenge to make the head work as a performance enhancing addition, and it was true. I learned quite a bit about ignition timing and combustion and detonation under a higher compression situation.

I don't drive my Ts regularly at speeds over 40 MPH for any length of time, but would rather prefer the added HP and torque to be used in hill climbing.

In the near future I might do some creative milling of the combustion chamber to lessen the compression some and re-direct the flame wave travel and see what happens. Relocating the spark plugs, as suggested, might also be an option. It will be a good experiment and it just might make a "silk purse out of a sows ear"!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 07:54 pm:

It would be interesting to know the volume of the combustion chambers in a Lizard head, just to compare with the other accessory heads out there..
http://mtfctulsa.com/Tech/head_design.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 09:44 pm:

Thanks for the info, Timothy. I don't know when impulse couplings were invented, but a HT magneto without impulse coupling should be able to start an engine as well as a Ford magneto and buzz coils.

The other alternative was the A-K Unisparker with snap action points. A set of dry cells would last about a year for most drivers. It was a distant forerunner to the E-timer, as far as efficiency.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 09:45 pm:

Thanks for the info, Timothy. I don't know when impulse couplings were invented, but a HT magneto without impulse coupling should be able to start an engine as well as a Ford magneto and buzz coils.

The other alternative was the A-K Unisparker with snap action points. A set of dry cells would last about a year for most drivers. It was a distant forerunner to the E-timer, as far as efficiency.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 11:12 pm:

Robert Bosch invented the impulse coupling somewhere around 1905ish.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 12:06 am:

Thanks, Craig. I wonder how the 1908 wholesale price of the Bosch with Impulse compared with a timer, set of buzz coils, coil box, low tension magneto and extra wiring?

Simplicity helps reliability. Also, compare maintainability of a bolt-on Bosch to the Ford magneto. Oh yeah, the Ford coilbox switch has a BAT position for when the Ford magneto quits.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 06:48 am:

I wonder if I would have called my grandmother grandpa if she was a he? Sometimes questions don't deserve any answer.

Those old Bosch magnetos are normally dead when you find them on a dual ignition car like a Pierce Arrow. They were never very popular because they were difficult to repair and expensive to buy. No major manufacturer ever used them on large scale production.

Ford's magneto was reliable as hell, and made the Model T outsell and outlast cars costing more, especially those with unreliable high tension magnetos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 08:10 am:

RD, you all too often attempt to speak as an expert on coils and the Ford mag yet run neither. As to your HT mag without impulse coupling being able to start an engine as well as the Ford LT mag you are way off. The Ford system has much more magnetic energy than the HT mag which means it will create the current much sooner. Ever try to start an airplane with a failed impulse coupling?

A well tuned T with a healthy mag will readily start on 1/4 turn.

Royce is correct that the DU4 isn't a good mag. You can go on one of your anti-capitolist rants about Henry screwing the guy that held the HT mag patents all you want but he came up with a reliable system that allowed easy starting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 08:21 am:

The Bosch and other magnetos of the era are no more complex than a Ford magneto plus buzz coils. Light aircraft today still have high tension magnetos similar to the original Bosch. The Ford magneto was abandoned 85 years ago.

Only one major manufacturer ever used low tension magnetos on large scale production. Most of the rest used a battery powered disturbutor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 08:35 am:

"Light aircraft today still have high tension magnetos similar to the original Bosch." Ever try to start one on one mag once the impulse coupling has failed on the other?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 08:43 am:

Both the planes I owned had impulse couplings on both mags. Never had an impulse failure. I wouldn't have noticed one failed, until inspection time. I guess they did make some planes with impulse on just one mag. How common are they?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 08:47 am:

I think this thread has gotten a bit off topic. Nice to see the discussion though. This is how new guys like me learn things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 08:47 am:

Very common and when that mag goes dead good luck getting it started.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 12:26 pm:

Overland used low tension mags during the teens. A Splitdorf Model "O". It powered a dash mounted ignition coil or, you could switch to battery power and use the mag as a distributor. They were junk. Most all of them were replaced with the far more dependable.... Bosch DU4 or DU4D. My Bosch DU4 does not have an impulse and still starts my Overland with little effort.

To keep this thread on topic I'll add that I have seen several Lizard heads. One of them on a fresh T engine mounted to a dyno. Sickening sounding spark knock at higher RPMs. Probably would need the infinite, split second adjustment of something like an E-timer to keep it happy, as Willard seems to have discovered.


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