Engine in Powerhouse Museum NSW

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Engine in Powerhouse Museum NSW
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 04:55 am:



This is a photograph of a Ford engine at the Powerhouse Museum in Sydney New South Wales.
The photo is on the internet, and carries this title- "B751 Engine of a Ford car. Period about 1904"

There is also this comment- "This image is not currently available as a higher resolution full colour zoom. This may be because this object has not been moved from storage and re-photographed in recent times."

So one has to assume that somewhere in the vaults of the museum lies this interesting engine. Can anyone offer identification? Perhaps over to you Hap!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 07:07 am:

Dane,

Bottom line up front: Thanks so much for posting this as well as the many other photos. It is clearly a Ford Model N,R,S, or SR engine. If the exhaust manifold is original to the engine it is probably a 1906.

Additional details:

There are a couple of items worth noting. First the combination front flywheel and fan appears to have been machined a little more on the back side to add a curved or tapered effect or it could be an optical illusion. The originals look like the one below (currently for sale on the Model T Haven site at: http://www.modelthaven.com/pff.html for a couple of additional photos).



The cylinders are cast in pairs and do not have a removable cylinder head [that was one of the major advances on the Model T – the development of the removable cylinder head. Many said it could not be done – but Ford did it and tested the concept on a modified Model N engine see: http://modelt.org/discus/messages/2/35597.html?1329156233 and scroll down to By Hap Tucker on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 8:07 pm: ] But the water outlet on top of the pairs of cylinders is turned towards the back of the engine and appears to be different from the standard one. Like many Model T parts that water outlet will fit either direction just fine but it is really difficult to get the radiator hose to fit properly when installed backwards. But it looks a lot thicker at the outlet end (in this case on the right side of the photo than the stock ones I am used to seeing.) The photo below of Irvin Haisch’s Model N shows how the water outlet on top of the cylinder jugs looks smaller than the one in the photo and also points towards the radiator.

The Exhaust manifold in Irvin’s photo as well as the one in the Museum’s photo are both the early 1906 style. It is basically the same size from the front to the back. The design was changed sometime in later 1906 or very early 1907 to a manifold that is a mirror image of the Model T exhaust manifold. And clearly Ford used the NRS & SR manifolds to design the T manifolds by doing a mirror image of both the intake and the exhaust manifolds. The manifolds will interchange between the N thru SR and the T but they point in the wrong direction if interchanged because the earlier Fords had them on the left side of the engine while the T had them on the right side of the engine. But the ports and gland rings (except possibly for the early 1906 N engines that were not machined as large) all line up.

And the transmission is typical 1906-1908 N,R,S,&SR.

Recommend you suggest (or let me know and I will suggest) that the title "B751 Engine of a Ford car. Period about 1904" be changed to about 1906-1908. Rationale – they didn’t have the NRS&SR engines in 1904 but they did have them 1906-1908. A high resolution photo would allow us to confirm if the engine has the brass cover over the end of the camshaft like the Model N engines did or if it has the cover that allows a pulley to be mounted on the end of the camshaft like the R,S,&SR had. Additionally it would allow us to read the engine number that should be visible in that photo. Ford of Canada did often add a letter to the front of the USA Ford provided 1906-1908 engine. But in this case if the engine number is B751 it is not listed anywhere in Trent’s Early Database. While the database is incomplete because many of the account receivable ledgers were missing and therefore they didn’t know which engines or cars were shipped to that dealer, the Ford Canada ledger is one of the ones that is available. And when I reviewed it there is no 751 listed for the N, R, S, or SR as being shipped as engine only (or chassis only for the early 1906 cars such as 41 and 72 they were both shipped as complete chassis to Walkerville) to Canada. So it would be great to find out what the engine serial number is on the side of the crankcase.

Additional database comment. Trent estimates that he has approximately 1 in 4 of the early cars and it includes approximately 1/4 of the the Ts between #9 and #1,114 that are not available in the Shipping Ledgers. So if someone wants to know when and where one of those Ts was originally shipped – we have about a 1 in 4 chance of having it documented. Trent’s “Early Database” based off of the Account’s Receivable Ledgers runs from Model A #4 shipped to Dr. H.W. Yates in Detroit MI on July 20, 1903 and stops with T # 1,114 a touring shipped to Wm. Warnock in Sioux City IA on Mar 2, 1909. [No it does not indicate if the cars were two-lever two pedal or one lever three pedal. But I wonder if anything in the original ledger might give a clue to that? I would guess not as I think Trent like many of us would have been really excited about that type of information. But if someone is visiting and want to look around the 500 to 850 numbers and see if there are any notes – that would be great. ]

Again, thank you for posting the photo!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 11:55 am:

Dane,

Good picture, and also good points by Hap.

Some observations and questions I have:

I suspect that the water outlet was "reversed" at some point during transit or storage as a static display. I also suspect the much larger diameter might indicate this engine was a thermo siphon prototype engine. Also supporting this theory is what appears to be a higher top area to the engine.

If you compare this engine with our early N (number 3) engine, as Hap notes, it has the early straight exhaust manifold. However the top of the engine seems to protrude much higher than on the NRS engine (look at the distance above the manifolds of this engine compared with our N engine. Also, the tappets/valve stems appear to be longer on this engine as opposed to the N engine?

If you are able to get a look at this engine, or more pics, things to look for include the size of the water inlet on the other side of the engine, and also if there is a raised boss on the left side toward the front of the engine. A boss would indicate the crankcase not as early as a non boss engine (the first several N engines did not have a raised area for the engine number, similar to the first Model Ts).

Also, as Hap pointed out, the "flywheel/fan is machined down for some reason. If this is a thermo siphon NRS engine, the need for the fan remains (more so than with the waterpump engine, but for some reason the weight of the flywheel has been reduced. Also, if the bore I's longer, this would be a higher hp engine. Otherwise, the stroke may remain the same, just more water volume with a "higher head" engine (another thermo siphon theory)?

Thanks for the pics and another early Ford "mystery". I'll also post a link to this thread on the Early Ford Registry Forum.

Rob






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 04:54 am:

Thanks for the interest and the comments, Hap and Rob. I fear that the number 'B751' is merely the museum's own catalogue number rather than referring to an engine number.
I could be wise if all three of us contact the museum with information, it might be of value to them and we might get the details that we would like from them.

http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 01:56 pm:

Dane,

I sent the following request off to the museum. Hope we are successful in finding "modern" info about the engine. Let me know if we should make any other attempts. I identified the number and year of the engine in the form portion of the request.

Thank you,

Rob

I am a collector of early Ford automobiles, and Vice President of The Early Ford Registry, a group of hobbyists interested in the preservation of early Ford automobiles and historical items.
Dane Hawley, Melbourne, has brought to my attention that your excellent museum has an early Ford engine. The photograph Dane produced is an old black and white, and I am hoping that modern color photos be produced for our research. It appears the engine may be (the black and white photo raises more questions than it answers) a bit of a hybrid or prototype, and we would like the opportunity to review modern photos and identify the engine. We will of course share all information with the museum that we are able to glean from any photos or assistance you provide.

Thank you,
Rob Heyen
Milford, Nebraska USA
rob4holly@hotmail.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 02:03 pm:

Rob -- Speaking of prototype early engines, have you seen the two in the Piquette plant? One is a Model T prototype with some NRS features, and the other is a Model S, I believe. They're quite interesting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 04:40 pm:

Mike,

Best guess on the Model N engine is it was the one displayed at the New York Auto Show in 1906 that introduced the Model N. Jerry tells me it never was a working engine - no innards! Apparently, Ford needed to display the new car at the show and the engine wasn't quite ready. So they mocked one up from and pushed the car around. Today's auto engineers tell me they still do that on occasion.

There is no engine number on the crankcase boss.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 05:08 pm:

Mike,

No, I haven't seen them. Piquet and the Henry Ford are all on my "bucket list". Do you have pics of the Pre T engine?

Thomas,

If it was an early N mockup, there should be no engine number boss. The first hundred or so Ns didn't have a raised area for the number, it was stamped to the rear of the crankcase on the left side. The first Model Ts were the same, no boss for the number. Below is a pic of our N with the "pre boss" number stamped to the rear of the crankcase.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 07:08 pm:

Rob,

I’m leaning towards having fewer rather then more folks asking the museum for information about the same item. [Dane – you know how things work in Australia better than we would – but would multiple similar requests come across as supportive or nagging?] I would recommend we work with Rob on gathering more data.

Note – a higher resolution copy of the current black and white photo would add lots of additional details. I have tried to zoom in but I cannot tell for sure if the crank case does or does not have the Engine No. pad on the left front side. On there web site they have already said they do not have the higher resolution color photos. But again – a higher resolution of the black & white photo would probably answer many of the questions. If it does have a number pad – there is a good chance we will be able to read the number.

Thank you for all you do for our hobby and for serving as the Vice President of the Early Ford Registry. If you and other folks did not take time to serve – we would not have nearly as good a club and support system. Thank you!

If you think it would be better if we had several different individuals asking for information, I am willing to drop them a note with that request. Please let me know your preference.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l915 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 07:23 pm:

Hap,

As always, I'll defer to your judgement :-). After all, it's because of you we own the car with the number 3 shown above (Hap helped research our Model N, and due to his extensive knowledge and research, I became an early Ford enthusiast).

I suspect a few requests might bring attention to the engine shown above, while inundation of requests might not be good. If you'd choose to send a note, I think it will be well received (besides, your much more eloquent than I).

Regardless, do you think the valves appear longer and the top of the head higher than a standard NRS engine? Also, the large water outlet pipe really intrigues me. A large outlet does no good without a similar inlet pipe.

I know people back "in the day" operated their NRS autos without the waterpump (probably after the Model T appeared on the scene with thermosiphon), but the inlet and outlet pipes diameter is probably to small to support it. This appears to be a Ford or aftermarket attempt to possibly allow the switch to thermosiphon.

Your thoughts?

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 08:22 pm:

Rob,

Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad I had a small part in helping you verify the car was actually N #3. I hope more folks become early Ford enthusiast [I include Ts in there also] and provide the support you do to our clubs and hobby. Yes, I will send the museum a note also. If several others also have that urge -- please check with us so we don't come across as nagging them.

I will post the answer I already dug up and I will look some more at the valves, manifolds, and heads and let you know what I see.

Rob & Mike,

The Pre-T engine was actually a stock Model N,R,S,or SR engine that Ford replaced the two pairs of cylinder jugs with what appears to be a single piece cylinder casting of four cylinders and a single piece removable cylinder head. As mentioned above, one of the major advances on the Model T – the development of the removable cylinder head. Many said it could not be done – but Ford did it and tested the concept on a modified Model N engine see: http://modelt.org/discus/messages/2/35597.html?1329156233 and scroll down to By Hap Tucker on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 8:07 pm: ] I’ll repost some of that information below:

A short paragraph from page 138 of Stern's "Tin Lizzie" taken from the oral history give by Joseph Galamb back in the 1950s.



Several photos of that engine:



As mentioned above – a high resolution photo allows you to zoom in. On the original higher resolution photo you can read the serial number 2552.







From the same posting By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, February 13, 2012 - 1:03 pm: shared:

+++++++++++++++++ Reposted +++++++++++

The two engines, the removable head prototype & the prototype NRS engine, now belong to me and my friend Norm. They were purchased from Les about a year ago, with the promise that they will be on long-term loan to the Piquette Plant museum in Detroit, where they now reside.

The removable head engine is most likely Ford's first ever.

++++++++++++ End of reposting ++++++

Again note that the engine and transmission is NRS&SR except for the cylinders and head. But it is most likely the engine that Joseph Galamb helped to build and drove around in the Model N to test out the concepts.

I have a few other photos if you would like to see them. If you compare that head to the head in the Advanced Model T Catalog – it appears very similar.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 08:39 pm:

Rob -- I took bunches of pics at the Henry Ford and the Archives. By the time I got to the Piquette plant, my (old) camera batteries were dead. I'll check with RV and Larry to see whether one of them got pics of the prototype engines.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 09:03 pm:

Hap and Mike,

Great stuff. I'm in Omaha waiting to fly (hopefully) to Harrisburg PA tomorrow. From there, I go to Hershey, pick up the N and K, and hopefully (I say "hope" a lot these days) on to the Hilton Head Concourse and then T tour in Savannah.

It appears to me the engine Dane posted is a bit different. However, better resolution pic(s) would help a lot. Interesting to me that many unique Ford items, such as the six cylinder Model J and K number 2 seem to gravitate to Australia. Fortunately for us, they (Aussies) speak a dialect of English we are able to comprehend :-).

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 09:11 pm:

BTW, the pics shown above are the beginning of the "modern internal combustion" engine, with detachable head. We have seen many so called new improvements to the modern engine that can trace beginnings back to the early 1900 s, however, there are no engines that I am aware of that had detachable heads prior to the Model T (I'll probably be proven wrong), and I doubt there were any cast cylinders without separate head (multiple cylinder) autos after 1925.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 10:19 pm:

So, this begs the question; how did these important engines survive? And (maybe even a bigger question) why aren't they part of The Ford museum collection? (were they sold along with a lot of other stuff?).
Glad they are at the Piquette, that seems to be the most appropriate place for them.
BTW, the '22 Buick 6 doesn't have a removable head.
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 10:32 pm:

David,

Your right (forgot, I owned a 24 Buick once). Many important cars and engines were sold at a few Ford sales over the years. I've heard that when Bill Smith bought some important Ford engines, Ford called and said they were reconsidering and wanted items back. While I know Bill Smith, I don't know if this true, but I am sure Ford regrets so many important artifacts being sold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - 04:21 am:

Rob and Hap, I believe that three comment and enquiries to the museum would be sufficient. Less would be easy for them to overlook, more could well be considered 'pestering'.

Some museums do not like enquiries at all, but I don't know how Powerhouse will react.

I am finding this thread of great interest, so many thanks to all contributors,
Dane.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - 02:24 pm:

David,

These two engines belonged to the Henry Ford museum until sold in the mid 1980's at one of their much debated auctions.

They were purchased at the auction by Cecil Ralston, from TX. He recognized them as being special and did not want them to be parted out. So, he held onto them for many years until his passing. It was then that his good buddy Les Schuchardt realized that he had to save them as Cecil did. He arranged with Cecil's wife to buy them. The top photo in Hap's posting shows the removable head engine at Chickasha, OK, on its way from TX to Les's place in SD. I too saw the engine in Chickasha and stared at it until it was driven away. Then, during the 2010 MTFCI Int'l. tour in SD, I had a chance to visit Les's collection. I didn't know he had the engines and so was very surprised to see them amongst his things. Thinking no more about, I completed the SD and went home to MI. A few days later I told my buddy Norm about the engines. He and I are both active with the Ford Piquette plant in Detroit. Norm was adamant that we try to get these engines back where the came from: Piquette. Knowing that Les is very hard of hearing, I wrote him a letter asking if the engines might be for sale and explaining where they would reside. Two days later I got a call from Les. He was very pleased that they would once again be at Piquette. A price was settled on and the engines made their way back home to Detroit. (Which is a whole other story by itself. Suffice it to say that Ford Motor Company delivered them to us. They don't know that however.)

Anyway, come see them some time. If it's off season at Piquette, contact me and I'll get you in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - 05:45 pm:

Here is a picture of the left side of Jerry and Norm's prototype Model N engine. Note there is no boss for the engine serial number near the front (fan) end of the crankcase. Also, there is no Part Number (N 402) cast on the engine either, as shown in Rob's photo.

prototype Model N

By all means, come see them when you are in the area.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, November 01, 2012 - 01:00 am:

Jerry,
Visiting the Piquette is on my bucket list! It's a long ways from Northern California though!
Thanks for the invite--I'll get there--someday!
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, November 01, 2012 - 08:40 am:

Dane and Hap,

I received an email already from the museum. They will send us pics shortly. Also, they said there are two numbers on the engine. 402 and 1708. I replied that this initially tells me the crankcase is either a Model N or S (I believe less than 1500 Rs were produced, going from memory which is not always prudent). Also,it appears to me that the faint outline of a Model N style oiler protrudes forward from the front of the other side of the engine pictured indicating it is probably N #1708.

Rob

From my iPad somewhere between Hershey and Hilton Head SC


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Friday, November 02, 2012 - 05:00 am:

Good news, Rob. I have been rather busy and had not got to write to them yet, so now I think I will just wait. Very much looking forward to the new photos when they arrive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 10:12 pm:

Bottom line up front: Engine appears to be a Nov 1906 Model N Engine and transmission, modified from water pump cooling to thermo-syphon cooling.

Additional details:

Thank you Rob for contacting the Powerhouse Museum and for sending me copies of the engine photos. Below are a few of the photos sent to Rob by the museum:



Photo above clearly shows the Engine No 1708. Because Ford started the serial numbers over for the N Runabout, R Runabout, S Runabout, and S Roadster, that serial number by itself could have been a 1906 Model N Runabout; a 1907 Model R Runabout (they produced approximately 2532 of them), May 1908 Model S Runabout, or Jun 1908 Model S Roadster. But the photo also clearly shows the closed bearing over the end of the camshaft to the left of the cast letters “Engine No.” That was used on the Model N Runabout chassis and NOT the other the other chassis (as far as we can determine). The Model R Runabout, Model S Runabout, and Model S Roadster had a pulley on the end of the camshaft for a belt to drive the McCord mechanical oiler [two styles 1907 & 1908].



The photo above clearly shows the Model N force feed oiler that was originally pressurized by a tube running from the exhaust manifold to the oiler. That combined with the Model N Runabout style camshaft bearing provides strong evidence that the engine was originally from a Model N Runabout. Note that the oil breather/filler tube has been removed and replaced with what appears to be a pipe cap. Also the normal side water outlets that are much smaller have been replaced with larger pipes – again supporting that the car the engine was converted to thermo-syphon.


The photo below shows the size of water outlets originally supplied with the car, the oil filler tube/vent and the normal size of the water outlet tube on the top of the cylinders. This photo also shows the belt driven 1908 McCord Mechanical oiler. Photo from page 32 of the Nov-Dec 1969 “Vintage Ford” and is used by permission to promote our club and hobby. [Engine is in a 1908 Model S Roadster but the S Runabout would be the same and 1907 Models R & S would have the earlier style McCord Mechanical Oiler [we are not sure how much over lap for 1907-1908 style mechanical oilers – if anyone has some leads on that – please let us know. The Price List of Parts has them listed as 1907 and 1908 but doesn’t give any hints on when they changed or how long the overlap was.]



Based on the above we are fairly certain the engine was in a Model N Runabout. Looking up Model N engine number 1708 we find in Trent Boggess’ “Early Ford Database” that Chassis number 1708 was shipped from Piquette to Ford Canada (Walkerville) on 11/21/06. [Note Trent’s database is available on Bruce’s “Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia” see: the MTFCA ads at: http://mtfca.com/showit1/index.html scroll down to the entry: “Literature for Sale Bruce McCalley's Model T Encyclopedia on CD's” which was posted Tue Oct 9 11:02:54 2012. Trent’s database is also available with Carl Pate’s “Pate’s Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia” please see: http://www.earlyfordcars.info/ ]

And for many of the early Canadian cars, John Biggs photographed several of the Ford of Canada ledgers that are located at the University of Windsor. Below is the entire page that Model N Runabout # 1708 is listed:



And tomorrow I will try to post the zoomed in photo showing it was shipped on 11/27/1906 to Sydney, Australia and the name of the dealer etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 04:48 am:

Thanks to Bob's request for photos and your clever sleuthing Hap, it looks as if some very worthwhile information will now be passed to the Powerhouse Museum. What a fantastic result!

Dane.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 02:45 am:

Bump


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 09:35 am:

Thanks John for the reminder. I’m a few days behind on posting an update.

Below is a higher resolution shot of that section of the ledger showing page 122 and engine / car #1708. (Thank you John Biggs for capturing and sharing that data!):



And from Carl Pates book “Pate’s Early Automobile Encyclopedia” we know it reads: [I cropped off the date received which was 11/21/1906] 1708 shipped 11/27/1906 shipped to Crossman & Seileken Sydney Australia equipped with 28 x 3 nd tires . The information after Australia is shown on the pages below:





Note the second line from the bottom that has Sydney Australia is the continuation for #1708. Note in the remarks the test put “good car.” Makes you wonder about the many others that do not have that comment.

Again for anyone interested in the Pre-Ts, I would highly recommend Carl’s book available from Lang’s as well as the author at: http://www.earlyfordcars.info/ And if someone who owns a Canadian assembled 1904 C to 1908 K,N,S it would probably contain when your car was shipped and where it was shipped.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 09:54 am:



I spent about 3 hours Saturday morning looking for the photo that shows a three-quarters right front side view of a Model N style Ford facing to the right. It was old photo of an old used car by the time the photo was taken. It had been modified quite a bit. It had the original Model N radiator and hood replaced with a standard Model T radiator and hood to fit the radiator. The hood was mounted higher than the standard NRS&SR hoods. I think it was next to a building – possibly a shed/garage/barn entrance it may have been driven out of. I believe it was posted by Dane or one of the other Australian posters who had located it on one of the “on line” photo listing several of the Australian museums have. Does anyone else remember any information about that one? (I’m 99% sure that I posted a comment about it being an NRS (no cowl so not an SR) with the T radiator and modified hood). As I mentioned earlier I spent about 3 hours Saturday and I could not find it. [Good news, I found several other items I did save.]

Why should we care? While it is a very long shot, I think it is possible that the engine in the museum may have been in that car. But we need some addition photos and information to verify or correct that quess.

The NRS&SR cars all came with a water pump built into the lower part of the radiator that hung down below the frame rails as shown below. I do NOT believe that Ford of Canada produced the thermo-syphon engine parts – although additional evidence may show that they did. They easily could have – but I do not think they had a reason to do so. If it was for test purposes – I do not think they would have fitted it to a car sold to the public (at least not that important a part. Ford did test electric horns in 1915 and tested many types of timers etc. over the years and sent them out the door for the public to drive. But that is another story.] The photo below is courtesy of John Grace. It shows a 1907-1908 Model N Runabout. From the shiny paint and brass surfaces I would suspect a new or slightly used Ford when the photo was taken. (I’m surprised the owner did not straighten up the left side lamp.)






“IF” that photo shows a modified Model N Ford with a T radiator but “NO” water pump then it possibly is using thermo-syphon rather than a water pump cooling. “IF” it was also located in Australia, which I think it was – then it could possibly be the car the thermo-syphon modified engine above was used in. And “IF” it is from the same area of Australia – then it likely is the same car.

Why would they have converted to Thermo Syphon? If it was 1914 or so and the water pump and/or NRS&SR radiator had been damaged, it may have been less expensive to have the one part cast for the cylinder heads and purchase a used Model T radiator. Also from memory (it has been a while so not documented but from memory) in hot weather the NRS&SR cooling system tends to boil a little after you shut off the hot engine. The water is no longer being circulated by the pump and the water connections are very small for the thermo-syphon effect to work well -- so it tends to make boiling sounds and steam. If anyone can confirm or correct that memory -- we would appreciate it.

Any help in locating that photo would be appreciated. Even if it turns out not to be an N car – I would like to close the loop on that one.

Respectfully requested,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 05:03 am:

Hap, the only car that I can think of from my postings is one with a couple of boys sitting in it. If I remember correctly we contacted the library concerned regarding the probability of the car being a pre- T.

I will hunt it out for you, but might take a while.

Dane.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 05:32 am:

Is this the one Hap? The photo is in the State Library of South Australia. That is not to say that the photograph is definitely one from South Australia. The Powerhouse Museum is in Sydney, New South Wales.



Details- TITLE Three children and a baby sitting in an early make car
DESCRIPTION GENERAL: Three children and a baby sitting in an early make car. The car has been somewhat modified. It seems to be based on a 1907-1908 Ford Model 'S' (the fore-runner of the 'T') It has a 1911 Ford 'T' radiator fitted in place of the original one and a modified bonnet because of that. It appears that the crank-handle bearing and holder are home-made. [from information provided by a researcher]
DATE ca.1912


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 05:39 am:

Should have mentioned that the picture can be found here-

http://images.slsa.sa.gov.au/mpcimg/59000/B58991.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 12:58 pm:

In that photo you can still see the NRS style water pump just below the crank. Looks too like the pump has not been abandoned as it appears that there is plumbing coming from it. Plus, it's an R, so the engine in the museum is likely not from this car.

I think the owner just needed a new radiator and used what he could get. It almost looks like the T radiator sits well out-in-front of the car. As if it were actually mounted in front of the original NRS radiator. Looks like extensions were added to the front of the frame to hold the T radiator. An argument to doing that would be that only the NRS radiator could properly support the pump. The T rad is mounted so high that I believe and original NRS rad neck could still sit under the add-on T hood.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 09:39 pm:

Dane,

Yes, that was the photo I was thinking of, thank you so much for finding it. I had looked a couple of hours Sat and a few additional times since then -- but always unsuccessfully. By the way – I did enjoy looking again at many other photos you posted that I reviewed while looking for that photo.

Jerry,

Yes, clearly the car above still has the water pump showing and apparently still hooked up. And it clearly is NOT a Model N. So it didn’t get past several of the “IF’s” listed above. And therefore the Model N engine would not have come from that car originally. [Disclaimer – I did say it was a “very long shot” and that we needed to look at the photo to find out.]

I did not remember if the photo did or did not have a water pump and I did not remember if it was an N,R, or S although I thought it had a flat dash rather than the SR curved metal one. Note the “comments provided by the researcher are the ones I believe I recommended. I just didn’t remember much about the car / details as I decided I was not going to be able to use it to help document how the R or S was originally built. It clearly has the running boards and fenders that were used by both the R & S runabouts. But I suggested Model S Runabout based on the small size of the wheels (i.e. the large distance between the wheels and the fenders). The Model R had the larger 30 x 3 clinchers while the Model S Runabout had the smaller 28 x 3 clinchers. But it could also be a Model R with heavier duty springs or one that had the wheels swapped out for the smaller 28 x 3 clinchers.

I still believe that might be a plausible reason for the thermo-syphon set up on the engine in the museum. I.e. and owner replacing the radiator and water pump in say 1915 or so with the Model T or similar large inlet and outlet radiator.

Again thank you Dane and Jerry and others who have put some brain bytes into trying to find out more information about this engine and for helping locate the pre-T photo that had the T radiator.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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