I have finally got the body number off of 1912 #109657 that has been owned by Arthur Mullins (now 98) since 1935. He is the second owner.
Today, with the sons, I was given permission to scrape off paint, lift back trim etc. under the front seat and we finally found a very faint
"G 1226", about 5/8” high lettering stamped on our driver’s side.
This is the second 1912 Canadian Ford body with a documented “G” body number. We believe the “G” stands for William Gray and Sons Company of Chatham that was the original body supplier when Ford of Canada began production with the Model C Ford. The company changed names slightly over the years but kept Gray in the name. They continued to supply Ford of Canada with bodies until sometime in 1912. We would like to try and establish if they produced any 1913 style bodies during 1912 or not. If folks would please check the front seat frame for a stamped letter and number and please let us know if they discover any additional “G” numbers.
Also, see the 2 bolts in the rear tub. The trim has never been out of this car and have been there since new. Perhaps this may be a characteristic of this body manufacturer?
With only a sample size of two “G” numbers Hap would still like to call it a theory – so we would like to find some additional supporting information.
It would be interesting to hear Arthur Mullins tell something about his long time ownership of the car
..For example what it was like to own a 23 year old car in the 1930's - did he chose it because it was cheap available transportation or because he liked the brass era style from start? How many times did he restore it in 77 years?
This Canadian car has s/n 93663 with a William Gray & Sons body number G 5378.
: ^ )
Thanks for tracking that down that information initially and for posting it. That is the other car that courtesy of you we have a known “G” body number. Is it ok for us to post the photo of the body G5378 number you sent a while back? And not to high jack the thread – but did you discover any noticeable differences between the 1911-early 1912 Canadian step sided body and the 1911 early 1912 USA step sided body?
Listing so far:
Serial # Body # Body Style
93663 G 5378 Step in body under front seat – one piece firewall long history on the car
109657 G 1226 Smooth sided body rear door hinged at front external door handle -- one piece firewall
long history on the car
This is where additional data points could help confirm or correct the following theory (guess about the body numbers)
Initial guess – Gray continued the 1911 body numbers and continued to stamp them onto the 1911 step style bodies as they constructed and provided the last of them to Ford of Canada. But with the new body design of the flat sided style – they began with a new serial number run. Again that is just an initial guess – but additional serial numbers, body numbers, and description of the body style (step under front seat, smooth sided, rear door hinged at rear, rear door hinged at front, rear door handle outside, rear door handle inside) might allow us to figure out a pattern.
There have been a couple of articles in the “Vintage Ford” about some early Canadian cars, but unfortunately, when they were done, no one was asking questions about the body numbers so they were often not documented in the story. If anyone knows of a body number to one of those stories please let us know. Also I have not had time to check the “Model T Times” stories yet to see if they mention any “G” numbers.
Again thank you to anyone who can put some “brain bytes” into this one.
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Dear Roger, I am just getting ready to go 600kms odd interstate for a the Model 'T' Ford Club of Victoria's "Melbourne Cup" 4 day Rally Weekend and won't have chance to be on the forum for a while.
I will tell the story of my old friend Arthur Mullins and his wonderful 1912 Ford when I get back.
Just a reminder for anyone going out to the garage and or visiting someone with a 1909-1913 Canadian car over the Thanksgiving Holiday. Would you please take a look for the body number and if you find one please take a photograph and/or write it down. Also we would like to know the approximate date of the car (engine number with the last 3 xxx; body type -- i.e. 1909,10,11, 12, 13 and a few details especially for the 1912 bodies. You can often see the body number by lifting up the seat cushion(s) and look down for the number on the seat frame in front of the gas tank.
Thanks for any additional numbers folks can locate. And have a great turkey day!
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I have a good friend who recently acquired a Canadian production 1912 touring in mostly original condition. It has the 1911 style body with front doors rather crudely added and a one piece firewall. Interestingly, it has the windshield supported by rear mounted braces, yet it also has the clamps for the earlier braces mounted on either side of the frame. It must have been assembled just as they were changing the windshields to the 1912 type. The engine and serial number plate numbers are the same: 879xx, and the body number stamped into the front seat frame is G5239. He thought the G might stand for Gray Carriage Works of Chatham, Ontario. It's a really neat car which probably had a repaint in the forties, but otherwise is in good unrestored condition. If you would like any more details about it, let me know.
I checked the body number on my Canadian 1913 touring, but it starts with F. For the record, the serial number is C86x and the body number is F175x0, the x being a place holder for a digit that got scuffed out of existence over the years. Kevin Mowle once told me my car was made in June of 1913.
In closing, Hap, I'll take the opportunity to say how much I appreciate your sharing of your detailed and scholarly knowledge of early Fords. You are a pillar of the antique car hobby.
Another 1913 Canadian body data point; fantastic! Research is in its infancy, but John's car fits the theory. The data points we have so far of original 1913 Canadian (4 door 1913 style body) cars is as follows:-
Does anybody have the body number from the original car C4010 found down in Tassie?
So far we have all cars with Fisher bodies in numerical order. Another dating point. If anybody has an original 1913 Canadian car I would love to hear from you. We need the original engine number and the body number of the list.
Hi David, interesting the match up that you have, I find it hard to understand why John Smiths last number of the engine number would be missing, how about a photo of the number so we can see it please, I would like to talk to Mr John Smith so we can compare details to see what minor changes there are between cars. My email is firstname.lastname@example.org
Keep plugging away David.... Ray
From your profile this appears this was your first posting. Welcome to the forum! And thank you for the kind words. So many others have helped me and I hope I can return the favor in a small way to others also.
With a user name EFM_30, I would guess you also own an EMF. And your probably already know about John M. Daly’s EMF home page at: http://emfauto.org/index.php and the Horseless Carriage Club of America’s EMF Registry. But I would rather mention it than take the chance that you may have missed it.
Thank you so much for posting your 1913 car’s information. Kevin has a wealth of Ford Canada information and I always enjoy his articles etc. If you are anyone else would like a free copy of Kevin’s “Vintage Ford” article “Only in Canada – Eh?” which discusses the 1920ish Canadian produced Model Ts, please drop me an e-mail with “Send Canadian T article” or something similar in the subject line. Also be sure to include your e-mail address as I cannot send attachments via the Forum’s Private Message feature. If you click on my name at the beginning of one of my postings it will call up my profile. My e-mail is listed as the third line down. The Private Message may also be used, but if you do not hear something back within a day or so – please let me know as I try to answer back or at least acknowledge the e-mail arrived. Yes, I agree with Keven that your car could have easily been produced in Jun 1913, although there is a chance it may have been produced in early Jul 1913 depending on how many Canadian engines [assembled from USA cast blocks with the “Made in USA ground off” were assembled and stamped with the serial numbers during May, Jun, and Jul 1913. From the serial number listing approximately 1500 engines were assembled between May 20, 1913 and Jul 31, 1913. [We say approximately – because it would be extremely unlikely for the engine serial numbers to always end on “00” and not on one of the other digits. And for the production ending July 31, 1913; July 31, 1914; Jul 31, 1915; Jul 31, 1916; July 31, 1917; July 31, 1918, and July 31, 1919 they all end on a nice even number that ends with “00” or “000” or “0000.” Many of us suspect they rounded off the numbers during those years. Those numbers came from a Jan 1987 letter prepared by Herman L. Smith (RIP) who was the Historical Consultant for Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited back then. Copies of that letter along with how it was obtained are posted at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/325787.html scroll down to: December 02, 2012 - 07:41 am.
The “F” in the body number of your Canadian produced 1913 would stand for the Fisher Body Company that had opened a Canadian Plant to avoid the tariff on sending completed bodies from the USA to Canada. For additional details and references about Fisher Body Company of Canada please see the posting dealing with 1913 Canadian bodies at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/244616.html?1320359605
If Ray Green is correct that you were having difficulty reading the engine serial number, you could send him/us a high resolution photo and there is a good chance by zooming in and changing the contrast etc. we might be able to figure out the last digit. If you placed the “X” there for privacy reasons then by all means feel free to keep that last digit private as it doesn’t impact our ability to date the engine/car and compare that to the body number. Note, in general I do not ask for and I try not to post the last two digits of serial numbers. Currently I do not think it is much of an issue. But if in the future if the scammers etc. figure out an angle where they could use the full serial number against us – I would prefer to make it harder for them rather than easier for them to get the information. In my own database I sometimes do track the serial numbers so I can help document individual cars. So I run a firewall, antivirus etc. to reduce the risk of the computer being hacked etc.
Thank you also for sharing about your friend’s touring 879xx, and the body number stamped into the front seat frame is G5239.
Serial # Body # Body Style
879xx G5239 has the 1911 style body with front doors rather crudely added and a one piece firewall. Interestingly, it has the windshield supported by rear mounted braces, yet it also has the clamps for the earlier braces mounted on either side of the frame. It must have been assembled just as they were changing the windshields to the 1912 type. [Friend of John G Smith mostly original car located in Canada]
936xx G 5378 Step in body under front seat – one piece firewall long history on the car -- still had the braces from the windshield to the front of the car [Submitted by Keith Townsend – old photo also]
1096xx G 1226 Smooth sided body rear door hinged at front external door handle -- one piece firewall
long history on the car. Car located in Australia. [Submitted by David Chantrell
A few more data points on the “G” for William Gray and Sons Company and we should be able to establish some theories (guesses) concerning the body numbers and engine numbers and dates. For example the 1912 smooth sided body has a lower body number than either of the Step in body under the front seat style tourings. It might be that they started a new series of numbers for the smooth sided touring bodies. But there could be other reasons of the lower number. Additional samples should help confirm or correct that guess.
David, thank you so much for starting this thread and thank all of you for contributing to the information we are gathering. Long term I am hoping we can correlate body numbers with engine/car numbers to better establish when changes were made etc.
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Another one for the list C4010 body number F19354, the original 1913 tourer that Ivan Austin used to own that came from Tasmania. I stress this was probably the most complete 1913 Canadian Ford found in Australia. So the list looks like this now...
Keep adding boys!!!
I forgot to ask the 1914 or 1915 boys out there. Does anybody have an original Canadian 1914? If so please lift the seat and send it across. We have no idea of Fisher extended past the 1913 body style.
I'm really enjoying this thread about Canadian cars. Re the serial numbers, I wasn't sure what the etiquette was, but I don't mind sharing the engine/serial number of my car. It is C861. In looking at my notes, Kevin said it was built on June 26, 1913.
I'm intrigued about the reference to Fisher bodies being made in Walkerville. Are you sure there is a connection to Fisher Bodies in the USA? The reason why I ask is that Frank Fisher was an executive of the EMF Company of Canada in Walkerville. To my knowledge, he had no connection to Fisher Bodies. In September, 1913, he and a few others took over the failing Tudhope Motor Company of Orillia, continuing to build cars in Orillia but badging them as Fishers, with a head sales office in Walkerville. I'm actually wondering if those Fisher bodies for ca 1913 Model T's might have been built in the Tudhope plant in Orillia, which, coincidentally, is where I live. Now this is just wild speculation, but I think Mr. Fisher was quite an entrepreneur and may have had his finger in a number of pies. There is even a story that the Canadian EMF's were assembled in the Tudhope plant, but that is not documented in any substantive way.
By the way, Herman Smith was a family friend. When I was a young boy in the car hobby in the fifties, Herm and his wife Evelyn, who had no children of their own, generously let me ride with them on tours in their wonderful Model A roadster.
Getting back to Model T body numbers, the same friend who has the original 1912, also has a very nice early 1914 Canadian production touring. It has all the 1913 features except the actual body: fenders, windshield, leather upholstery. I'll get the body number for it, and put it into the mix.
Must sign off now, but thanks again Hap and everyone who is contributing to this thread.
And yes, I do have an EMF, a 1911 Canadian production roadster. I'm a member of the EMF registry and have been helped greatly by John Daly's excellent website. However, thanks very much for mentioning these EMF resources.
Hi John, I would like to talk to you about your car and my car, I need some answers on some minor changes that I have not found out here which include a different build plate, I added my email address to my LAST post so could you please contact me, if you would like to give me your phone number I will ring you at no cost to you as I do ring members around the world all the time much to the lady of the houses horror when she see's the bill.... Ray
And another 1913 tourer!!!!
Keep them coming boys!!!!