When putting the engine back in it wants to settle into a position that is 3/4 of an inch off center. Should I off set the front motor mount or force the motor over to the center. I have loosened the rear mounts and the wooden block bolts, shook the engine side to side and up and down with no change. The last time I put the engine back in this was not an issue. What is the proper way of locating the front mount?
Mike,
Is the body on or off currently? If it's off, check your diagonals and make sure the frame isn't a parallelogram. The front motor mount needs to be on center so it lines up with the square hole and spring bolt. Also the wishbone on the ball needs to line up.
Was the pan checked for straightness? It's possible one of the side arms is bent.
If the body is on, you can still check your diagonals to the dash braces and get a reasonable idea of what's out.
The body is on the car. The wishbone ball lines up. This is the second time the motor has been out in 25 miles (re-replace cracked low drum). Neither the car or the engine have suffered any kind of trauma since it all fit properly during the first replacement. It seems so simple that I am hoping that I am blinded with frustration.
Mike, did you get it yet, as it will save me some typing!
Herm.
I agree with Tom Miller. I also had the same problem and found the ear on the crankcase was bent. This can happen easily when removing or replacing an engine. If it binds on something while doing the work the ear could easily be bent.
Norm
First, make sure that the front mount is actually centered and tight. Take the bolts out of the side mounts, they shouldn't be in there yet. Set the engine in place with the snout in the front mount and then see how the side holes look. Then maybe you will discover what is bent or out of alignment.
Another thing, check how easily the handcrank engages and disengages the pulley. It should not bind at all. The front of the pan bends easily. I know someone who bent his hammering a new bushing in instead of pulling it in with a bolt.
The reason the front motor mount is made the way it is, is so it can be moved to accommodate a bit misalignment. 3/4 of an inch seems like a lot though. On a rebuild, I typically keep the motor mount loose until I install both the radius rod and pan.
Problem solved! I took all 4 bolts out of the ears and removed the wishbone. Started with the front motor mount and worked my way back. Nothing was obviously bent but it took a drift pin and a little prying to align the holes in the ears to the frame. I could not find the engine re-installing directions in any of my books.
Mike
Good work.. the Ford Service says to fit to frame first, that means to slide the crankcase ears on the frame and align the crankcase into the front bearing.
Ford Service
Mike, I didn't see where you answered Tom Miller about getting your pan aligned?
By your last post, you said " it took a drift pin and a little prying to align the holes in the ears to the frame".
IF, you had to Pry the holes to line up the bolts, that would be fine, BUT IF you had to Pry the holes to get one, or both bolts in, as the hole wouldn't stay open, even if your frame is off, leaving them like that, you are going to have problems, and vibrations.
The last thing, those side blocks, and bolts should never be used, unless it is a point car. They hold the arm to Rigid.
That is why the pan arms break right above the pan line, the arms can't flex, the full length of the arm. It can also wear grooves in to the Pan Arms, from the frame.
Herm.
Herm, I did not get the pan aligned, just bolted it back together like it was. I installed the front motor mount and left the cap loose. The top ear to frame holes took a bit of prying with a drift pin to get them aligned close enough to drop the bolts through. I then took up all mounts gradually. Sometimes applying the "what would a farmer do?" logic is all it takes.
This is the first that I have heard that the wood side blocks should not be used. If I remember correctly one of my books states that they should not be more than snugged down. Not to doubt you, but does anybody else have an opinion concerning the motor mount blocks?
The wood blocks should be used, but not snugged down. Those wood blocks are what keeps the pan ears from bending back and forth as you go from accelleration to stopping. Henry Ford used them on all his Model T's. If they weren't needed, he would have eliminated them and cost in time and materials. Also, it is possible to distort the crankcase when you bolt up the engine and hogs head. You need to leave all the bolts loose until you turn the engine nose down and fit the 4th main. Then tighten back and forth just as you would when tightening the head. Just a little at a time until all are tight. When all are tight the 4th main should be easy to move in and out with just the two bottom bolts started in the crankcase.
Norm
Norm, you have no clue! I will tell you why, the first chance I get to set down for a break!
Norm, I was in a hurry, and the line,you have no clue!, should have read, I don't think you are correct on some of what you said!!!!!!!
Later, Herm.
The wood blocks should not be used, We have never used a set in any of the Model T's that we rebuilt, and with out any broken arms. If only the top arm bolt is used, the crankcase arm from that bolt, to the pan rail can flex, on, or over uneven ground, with out stress to the bottom, one, to two inches, of pan rail up. Any body that drives, off road, fields, parks, through small ditches, gravel roads ect.
In 1925, Ford even recommended not to use the bolts, and blocks in the Trucks any more, so the engine was more Flexible, and reduces the possibility of cracking crankcase arms. There is not a difference between cars, and trucks, in this instance! Page 335 Ford Service Bulletin book.
Also, it is possible to distort the crankcase when you bolt up the engine and hogs head. "End Quote"
The only time you can distort the crankcase, when you bolt the hogs head on, is, No 1. The crankcase is not straight, to begin with, or No. 2 the wrong thickness of gaskets, and felt was used, Period!!!!
You need to leave all the bolts loose until you turn the engine nose down and fit the 4th main. Then tighten back and forth just as you would when tightening the head."END QUOTE"
You don't want the pan on its nose to have it come out in the right place for the ball cap, as you don't have ANY CONTROL OVER WHERE THE PAN COMES OUT, UNLESS YOU BEND THE ALIGNMENT OF THE PAN AGAIN!!!!
The last thing, the best way to put a pan on, is to have the pan rail, Skyward. Fit the pan gaskets, and bolt the pan on, in that position.
For the Hogs Head, turn the engine level, and put on the Hogs Head, and then put the engine on its Nose, and if the ball cap will slip down to the Pan Face, with out a gasket, the Pan Alignment, was a good job!! If Not, Fix It.
Hear is the thing, you can bolt that pan on, and off, and the Alignment will come out the same way EVERY TIME, unless you change the alignment on the pan again.
The old wives tail of bolting a ball cap to to the pan to put it in alignment, is a Joke! You can't move it, as the 19 bolts will take it to the same place every time!
Now putting on the Hogs head is the same thing. If the pan is aligned right, you can not do anything to change Ball Cap alignment by Bolting the hogs head on, if it does change, your alignment job was not done right.
One last thought, all pans have to be watched for this, but 1926-27's more, the pans have a tendency to Bow Up, at the, Block, and flywheel, or Hogs Herm, area, the more it is off, the more trouble you will have trying to shim the hogs Head straight!
I will opt for installing the blocks as built by Ford. They were there for a reason. We no longer drive on, for the most part, dirt roads. As far as I know Ford was still installing the blocks up to the end in cars which is what is being asked about. I would think that using just the top bolt mounted snug would cause grooving in the top frame rail and wearing out of the hole in both the pan support and frame from flexing going around corners and any imperfections in today modern roads. I think the block provides support in this area and turns the supports into a middle cross member.
Blocks cause the frame to cut into the arms, when the bolts are snugged, everything works in opposite of how you are thinking.
Of course, Thinking how something works, is never as good as doing something, and see how it works!
When a frame twists, what is involved can do one of two things, Flex, or bend.
You don't have to drive on dirt roads, there is uneven ground every place, even off most drive ways at homes.
I suppose no one has ever went to a park, and pulled off a park road, and through a 6 inch, or 2 foot, little ditch.
If you can't dummy out how no blocks work, by all means use them!
I agree with your method of installing the crankcase on the engine upside down. I also agree with shimming the top of the hogs head on the 26-27 model to keep it straight vertically. However I believe the hogs head should not be completely tightened until the 4th main is aligned. The hog's head could be out of alignment horizontally because of the slop in the bolt holes. It's also very important to not tighten the front two bolts on the hogs before you tighten all the other bolts. tighten all a little at a time. Those two next to the engine are very easy to crack off the corner of the hogs head because of the pressure of the felt seal.
Norm
When you tighten the hogs head down, it is just like the pan bolts, the Hog head bolts, will pull the Hogs head to where it wants to go, unless you have elongated your bolt holes, and if you haven't, they will pull center every time, there is NO adjustment at ALL, and that is where the pan is for Alignment!! There is no way to shift the Hogs Head to match a place to come out with the ball cap.
It ALL comes down to a GOOD ALIGN JOB, on the Pan.
If the Ball Cap doesn't come out right, somebody did a BAD job of alignment.
You can NOT use the Hogs Head to align the ball cap, as there is nothing to align with.
All the Alignment comes from the Pan Jig!!
The shims are used only when everything is Bolted tight, and, or if the the rear of the pan has to go down to let the ball cap pass, to be centered.
The pan fitting in the call cap area will always be perfect if you take the time to take the bow out of the pan rail, where the Block stops, and the Hogs Head begins!!
If the Block, and Hogs Head were made in one piece, the pan wouldn't Bow!!!
Does your shop have a pan jig, and if so, how hard a job is it to get the pan into good/perfect alignment? Just wondering.
Yes=====Depends on the Pan======and we are filled up until March 1st 2013.