Can doors be put on a 1912 that has no doors?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Can doors be put on a 1912 that has no doors?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Sunday, November 04, 2012 - 05:25 pm:

Can doors be put on a 1912 that has no doors? I forget, didn't the first half of 12 not have doors and the second half of 1912 have doors? Hence, the question: can doors and the body wall between the door and firewall be put on a 1912 that has no doors?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Sunday, November 04, 2012 - 07:16 pm:

I think they can but there were several different body suppliers and you probably have to get the ones that go with the body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, November 04, 2012 - 07:26 pm:

Robert,

All the 1912 model year Model Ts came with removable front doors and associated door frame etc. See: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1912.htm What was the model year? Jan 1912 to Sep 12 approximately ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1912.htm

BODY TYPES: Touring, Runabout, Town Car, Coupe, Torpedo Runabout, and Delivery Car.
Bodies were supplied by several manufacturers. Metal panels over wood frame. Again restyled. While similar to the 1911, the side panels were now relatively smooth and the front compartment was enclosed with removable “fore doors.”

What you would desire to do is purchase the appropriate fore doors for the body style and preferably body maker who made your body. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/119926.html for photos and descriptions of the several types of bodies that were offered during 1912 from the left over 1911 style to the last smooth sided style.

Note many restorers in the 1940-1960s removed the front door panels to make the cars look older. On the other side some 1911 owners back in 1912 etc. purchased the doors to make their cars look newer and to keep things from rolling out of the front area. At least one current owner has purchased an extra pair of fore door assemblies just to save them. So they are available.

Also the Canadian cars had a functioning door on both sides while the USA cars had a false door on the left had side (the driver's side for a LHD car).

Finally -- if you have an original body, please check under the front seat cushion on the wood frame in front of the gas tank for a body number. If you find one please let me know. And if you believe your car has the original engine and body -- please let me know what style body, dash board, engine number (feel free to xxx the last three digits, ID patent plate number, which country it was made it. Thanks!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, November 04, 2012 - 07:32 pm:

Correction -- I was thinking all 1912 tourings had fore doors. But not all 1912 models had them. The Delivery Car and the Commercial Roadster were still open front cars.

Respectfully updated,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 12:33 am:

Be careful, Hap, or Royce will jump all over you!
*wink* There were some 1912 cars which used the left over 1911 bodies that were not equipped with fore-doors.

Robert-

Every slab-side 1912 Model T came from the factory with fore-doors. So if doors are missing, they can be put on.

I know there are variations between body manufacturers on the 1911 models in that a set of Hayes fore-doors will not Beaudette body. I don't know enough about the differences of the 1912 bodies and the fore-doors for those cars, but as Verne pointed out, you will probably need to match the right doors to the body.

pics?

: ^ )
Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 06:28 am:

Keith,

Thanks for the reminder -- you (and Royce) are correct that Ford did continue using up the older 1911 bodies. And I would much rather be corrected -- than to mislead myself or others. My hopes are we continue to discover more information that helps us better document what the typical cars were like. There will always be some exceptions -- life is like that and Ford cars are definitely like that. [For example the numerous cars that were equipped with the 1910 style running boards even though they were produced in Jun 1911 ref page 497 Bruce's book and CD shipping invoices.]

Bruce mentions on page 111 also in his CD that the 1911 open front bodies were used without the fore doors and then approximately Dec 1911 they were used with the fore doors but still using the two piece dash.

If we go by Fords fiscal year which began Oct 1, 1911 then clearly many of the cars did not have the Fore Doors. If we go by Bruce's model year of approximately Jan 1912 to Sep 1912 (see: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1912.htm ) then some of the cars with the Fore Doors were produced before the model year began.

Which is similar to Jan-Feb 1915. Ford produced both the new 1915 model year cars with the new metal cowl at Piquette while he continued to produce the 1914 flat wood dash model year cars at the Branch Assembly plants. In that case we call a car produced with the metal cowl a 1915 even if it was produced in Dec 1914 such as some of the 1915 closed cars or we call it a 1914 if it has the flat wooden dashboard even if it was produced in 1915. So there is an overlap when both styles were produced for both the transition from 1911 to 1912 as well as the transition from 1914-1915 and certainly for other years when the branch assembly plants were operating.

Bruce alluded to using the fore doors as the distinction for the 1912 model year. On page 111 he states "The fore doors (not shown) were added in the "1912" models beginning around December 1911. And the MTFCI Judging Guidelines #6 for 1912 comments that the “Four-doors standard on touring cars.” So I believe if the car came from the factory with the removable fore doors it would be acceptable to call it a 1912 regardless if it was made in 1911 or not.

I believe I read that Ford also offered a retrofit kit for the earlier cars so they could install the doors. And of course there were probably after market kits to update the older Ford to the new style also. That could muddy the water a little also for figuring out an individual car.

But once again -- Ford made running changes and many of us would like nice clear model years. And with Fords use of older parts it is always possible that a 1911 body without doors was installed on chassis after Jan 1, 1912. But if lots of them were done that way -- then it would be good to add that note to the current data (or the data I'm aware of -- it may already be added somewhere that I do not know or remember).

There is always more to discover, learn, and relearn. Thanks to everyone for helping us better document how things probably rolled out of the factory (and later the branches also). And more importantly for keeping the Fords rolling and the hobby fun. They do not have to be "just like" they rolled off the factory floor to be lots and lots of fun. For that matter -- if a car was equipped with a windshield -- I don't want the original plate glass in front of me unless it is only going to be displayed in a museum and not driven.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By william louis rosenthal on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 07:27 am:

Robert:
Not to contest anything posted here but...a set of 12 Fore Doors made by Beaudette and intended for a different but same style 12 Beaudette body, does not necessarily mean you can bolt these on and go. These are crude wooden frames with the steel peaned over the frame. Not all doors are marked to identify mfr., so you really won't know what you've got till you attempt to fit them up. Also note that while these are described by Ford as "removable", this description is a bit misleading under the most favorable of circumstances. The operable side pieces can be installed and removed fairly easily, while the Dummy panel must have the upholstery lifted at 3 points to remove the hidden fasteners. This is quite a chore, and may result in damages to the inner door cover and the Gimp trim.
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 01:20 pm:

I had the pleasure of watching an early '12 Touring restoration many years ago. The car appeared to have 1400 original miles on it, per the speedometer, and the fact the body wood was absolutely original and perfect. It was a southern wide-track originally sold to a physician in Somerville, AL, and it had some odd dealer-installed doors.

From what I remember, the body was an early one and the doors for that body were not available at the factory. Wonder where that car is today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 08:58 pm:

Maybe it is just me. But if I had a 1912 and was missing the fore-doors. I don't think I would need more than a half dozen decent photos to be able to make a set myself. But, then, I have built a couple whole bodies over the years, and my attitude has always been that "if I can't buy it, build it". I do always try to use as much original stuff as I can.
The doors would have to be built custom to fit right. Otherwise I might consider it as a business opportunity.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Anderson on Tuesday, November 06, 2012 - 09:29 am:

Small picture of Fore door. Gary in MN



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Tuesday, November 06, 2012 - 04:43 pm:

Thanks for your help. It was very interesting reading. My wife likes the doors and prefer no doors. Hence the question.

I do not have the 12 now. I am optimistic that one is in my future - can't hit the target if you don't have the goal!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By william louis rosenthal on Tuesday, November 06, 2012 - 05:54 pm:

Need a 12 Touring Body with the Fore doors, I got one with your name on it.
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, November 06, 2012 - 10:15 pm:

So put one on her side and leave yours off! LOL :-)
That way she will have to open the door for you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Wednesday, November 07, 2012 - 01:29 am:

The photo that Gary posted is a fore door for a car with the two-piece dash, commonly referred to as the 1911 dash, however the car could be a 1912 production with a left over 1911 body like Royce's. The dip in the front panel fits to the lower portion of the two-piece dash.

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, November 07, 2012 - 06:45 am:

Retrofit door kits were offered for earlier Model T's as early as 1909. This is a Canadian built 1909 - 10 touring photographed with a set of dealer installed doors.



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