My "new" car -- its build and questions

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: My "new" car -- its build and questions
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 12:15 pm:

I have purchased an early T fairground racer advertised on the MTFCA Swap Site. A delightfully simple racer, and way beyond my knowledge. It wss advertised as a 1920 because the block was cast in June of that year; but some parts point to an earlier year.

Here's the build;

- brass-era radiator and firewall
- buckboard body with buckets and stock tank
- Rocky Mountain-style brakes
- stock-appearing steering asseembly
- heavy-duty hairpins
- springs behind axles (lowered chassis)
- Hayes wirewheels
- Bosch magneto
- Rajo Model C head with one-piece intake/exhaust manifold
- 1920 block (June 1920)
- brass-era hogshead
- Ruckstell transaxle
- Warford with cast-iron case

That Rajo C Model head retains the old aluminum valve cover and the one-piece manifold. Does anybody know what years the Model C was made?

About that Warford; does anybody know which years were cast-iron and which were aluminum?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 12:46 pm:

Need a little air in that left rear tire.

Looks like a beautiful car. Would like to hear more about how it runs and handles. Thank you for sharing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Sumerall - Athens, AL on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 01:34 pm:

Hello David,
Glad you finally got it. I'm guessing it's the one you called me about that was in CA. I'll bet it's fast. You just got to careful that you can stop it, too. You never want to outdrive your brakes. My car is now over at Tim's getting a number of things done to it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 01:37 pm:

WOW! i love it! Origional Warfords came in both Aluminum and Cast Iron. Cast iron were typically used in trucks to gear down where aluminums were used in cars (and speedsters in my case :-) ). The new warfords are aluminum and are much better quality. warfords are typically 3 speeds of an underdrive, direct drive, and overdrive. On a side note, if yours is is cast iron consider making a bracket to take the weight of it off the torque tube and the back of the hogs head. And thus, i have told you my complete knowledge of Warfords :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 02:24 pm:

Mike: Yes, this is the one from CA. I was very excited to get the car home, now in a quandry what to do with it. As you may know, like you I don't like cars that sit around like furniture. BTW, your touring car looks great in that color. Hope to see you at Tim's soon.

Nathan: The Warford is indeed cast-iron. Obviously the later Warfords are aluminum, and I've heard the very early ones were cast-iron. Unfortunately I haven't found any more data on them.

Not sure about how well-braced the Warford is, but it's been in the car for over 60 years now, and was once run at over 85 mph with plenty of pedal to spare, or so said the previous owner.

Anybody up for a ride?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 02:24 pm:

Maybe it's just the camera angle but it looks longer than the standard Model "T" wheelbase; perhaps a one foot extension was added to the frame rather than the usual shortening of the driveline a foot for the Warford. Cool looking speedster at any rate!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P. Steele, Montana on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 02:31 pm:

David,
Neat, neat car! Looks like you have a Warford and a Ruxstell. I have a car with a C head and it will go way faster than you should drive if you don't have any auxiliary brakes so be careful. Considering the cars light weight you can probably lock up the rears anyway. Front wishbone looks good and solid. Make sure you have the tires inflated to proper specs.You don't need to have one pass you while your going down the road.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P. Steele, Montana on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 02:33 pm:

David what stuffed in the corner? Looks like a 16 or earlier touring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 02:37 pm:

I believe the car in the corner is a '14 touring. The picture was taken prior to being shipped to my place. The '14 might still be for sale.

Regrettably, the only other Ts I have are absolute basketcase late roadsters. And a '25 lake/track T with a Merc flattie on TT framerails. Yes - it'll turn your hair and knuckles white.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 03:14 pm:

Harold: When measured for shipping, front tread to rear tread was 133.0 inches. I was told the frame was stock, but haven't examined it closely yet. The axles are forward of the springs, and the springs seem to be in their stock locations.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 03:48 pm:

Yeah, that sounds about right for the standard 100" wheelbase; must just look long in that particular photo. How about a few more detail photos when you get a chance? It's always fun to see the different ways that were used for lowering chassis for speedsters and how things were set up.

You called it a "delightfully simple racer" but you've got some pretty "spendy" equipment there David. Hmmmm,....let's see,.......Hayes, Rajo, Bosch, Warford, Ruckstell, not to mention Rocky Mountain brakes. NICE! Not sure that "delightfully simple" is an accurate description!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 05:06 pm:

Well, it looks simple at first glance, and it's easy to get "in" and "out". Now trying to shift gears things can get complicated really fast!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 05:09 pm:

David

Please take it out in the sunshine for photos.

Inside won't do justice to this car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 05:19 pm:

I can throw a little more light on it . . .



But some nice sunshine would be better.

Regards
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P. Steele, Montana on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 05:30 pm:

David if I figured this correctly you have 12 forward speeds which is probably:-) over kill but but there shouldn't be any situation that you don't have the correct gear. The challenge will be finding that gear. Six in reverse. Like Harold and Dave I would love to see some more pictures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 11:43 pm:

Nice speedster! Does the Rajo C have single port intake or dual Port intake? I am just curious as years ago I had a "C" with dual port intake but have heard that the single port is more common.
As far as the Warfords go, I don't know for sure which came first (I have heard both ways), but both were manufactured for several years. And, contrary to popular belief, BOTH were sold and installed in both cars and trucks.
I also agree. It is hardly a "simple" or basic speedster. I don't know what I would call it, year wise. It looks brass era, but most of it is later. Warfords, Ruckstells, and Rajo Cs all were not available until the '20s. The wheels too.
But most people do not get that picky with speedsters. Very few "brass era" speedsters are kept anything close to correct brass era. My nearly together "mostly '13" will be one of the few.
You have many options. I think one of the most important things is to have fun with it. After being careful not to "over drive the brakes" as others have said.
I like it as it is. It has a good balanced look too many speedsters do not.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Tuesday, November 06, 2012 - 07:21 pm:

Here's the Rajo Model "C" head (I think) from the intake/exhaust side. It could be a 35C.

When I get a chance I'll take some pics outside. Lots more questions I'll have, too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, November 06, 2012 - 08:26 pm:

WOW! Great photo David! You mentioned you'd take more pictures when you get time,....keep 'em coming when you get time, please. You also mentioned that you'd have more questions. Well,.....trust me on this one David,....I can assure you that if you post more pictures of the quality you just did, those pictures will prompt questions that you didn't even think to ask! What an interesting car!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, November 06, 2012 - 08:32 pm:

A question in regard to the last photo you posted,.....I'm wondering what kind of carburetor that is. Looks like a carb that was designed for a Model A. "Similar" to a Tillotson (sp?), but not quite. Maybe Unca' Stan will chime in on this. Thanks again for the great photo David,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Tuesday, November 06, 2012 - 08:54 pm:

That carb is a Zenith used on 4 cyl Fords from 1932-34.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Tuesday, November 06, 2012 - 08:59 pm:

Was told the carb came from a Model 'B' Ford. This is my very first foray into owning a 'T' that has a 'T' block. Figured if I was going to get speed equipment, getting it all at once was probably a good idea, even if it cost me.

This car came from a large collection of impressive early cars. The owner said it was built by his father about 1950. Not sure what "built" means, as the car may have been a racer even earlier. The title is for a 1920 roadster.

There are lots of features on the car that aren't visible in the pics I have right now, but when I get the chance...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Protexter on Tuesday, November 06, 2012 - 09:09 pm:

That is a model B carb. I have one on my Frontenac and it seems to do the job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, November 06, 2012 - 10:17 pm:

Thanks Luke - I thought Model A because of the angled choke sleeve/coupling as Model A's have. Sure a different shape carb than the Model A Zenith, huh?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Lyon, PDX, OR. on Wednesday, November 07, 2012 - 01:08 am:

What is the attachment on the back of the generator with the copper tubing to it? Don.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, November 07, 2012 - 02:32 am:

It's an oil pump. The block may have been converted to full pressure oiling, could be a shortened model A crank in there too?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Wednesday, November 07, 2012 - 08:00 am:

Yes, that's an oil pump; and it apparently oils very well according to the valves. Not sure if the crank is a drilled Model T or a Model A.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, November 07, 2012 - 09:01 am:

All you need now is a roll bar over the seats and the radiator to have you a vintage polo car/racer. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Wednesday, November 07, 2012 - 01:07 pm:

Those look like the polo cars that we run around on the ice in the winter up here in Wisconsin.


I do not think that that car has a generator. It only has an oil pump.

It is neat to see a head and manifold made by RAJO in Racine , where I grew up. Just down the street from the hobby shop where I hung out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Wednesday, November 07, 2012 - 01:11 pm:

Now I see better. The car does not have a generator, but it has a magneto (Bosch?) attached to the front of the engine that sticks out over the steering gear. Wonder what other unique items you will find.

More pics please. Love your car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 06:15 pm:

The Giacometti T in Alabama today -- no she's not running.  Yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 06:26 pm:

Above and below are photos of the 1920 Ford T fairground racer, in the sunshine today. Hope to jog some of you experts out there for info on the equipment. Thanks in advance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 06:30 pm:

20c
My nephew is already a T fanatic. Twelve years old and already no hope. He stole my hat following a recent tour in the T hot rod.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 06:35 pm:

20d
No fan belt yet. In fact I haven't touched the car other than roll it around. Soon though we'll get it on the road a little.

Were there lots of oil pumps like this one available way back when?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 06:43 pm:

20e
Bosch Ignition


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 06:50 pm:

20f

Stewart speedometer cable/gear assembly -- how 'bout that spring set behind the axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David R Barker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 06:54 pm:

David, according to the Jarvis Collection article on Model T OHV heads, RAJO introduced the "C-35" in 1922, and was part of their sales line until "the end of the Model T Fords". It also states that "Early models had the cut-away" section on the side for short cap screws", which looks like what your photo shows.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 07:00 pm:

That's a pretty quick and easy way to lower the front end. I hope whoever did it was a good welder! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 07:11 pm:

20g

About what year do you think the hogshead is?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 07:15 pm:

20h

Believe it or not, the seats are wooden. the whole body is wooden.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 07:24 pm:



Cast-iron Warford braced in the back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 07:26 pm:

20j


Does this information indicate a year for the gearbox?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 07:31 pm:

20k

Where did the wishbones come from, a truck?

Obviously, the welding was done way before mig, tig, etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 07:33 pm:

The hogshead is in the 1913-15 range. Look under the pedal covers to narrow it down -- If they're ribbed, it's a '15. If they have the C R and B, it's a '13-14.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 07:39 pm:

20l

Not sure when or where these brakes were made. But the work pretty in the yard. Notice the rear spring behind the rear axle


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 07:52 pm:

20m

The Ruckstell. Tag image enhanced for readability. Any idea about what year?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 07:59 pm:

20n


Check out the fuel line -- looks like some of my work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 08:09 pm:

20o

No key for this car. Looks like the oil pressure gauge is a little more modern than the speedo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 08:17 pm:

20p


Conclusion of this picture round. Are all the performance parts pretty early? I appreciate any and all efforts to identify this stuff, as I'm quite the novice right now.

And I'm sorry for not putting these pics in as few frames as possible; but I've had too many issues trying to post multiples at one time using this computer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 08:18 pm:

Mike, there's noting on the reverse pedal -- it's slick. Maybe there's a faint R.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 08:24 pm:

Those wishbones and ball sockets look like a 2N Ford tractor


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 09:00 pm:

David -- Slick pedals are 1916 - '25. But the hogshead is earlier, as I mentioned before.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Holcomb, Watertown WI on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 09:51 am:

The wishbones look like 9N, I may be wrong but I think they only used the cast ones on the 9N.
2N and 8N used pressed steel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 02:41 pm:

David - Some very subtle design decision were made when this speedster was built. One such thing is the means by which the chassis was lowered,.....front and rear. In each case, the axles were positioned slightly ahead of the springs, thereby moving the "CG" slightly rearward by a like amount. A good thing I'm sure due to the improved front/rear weight distribution of this speedster. As you said David, looks to be a "simple" design but I really like it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 02:49 pm:

David - Forgot to say thanks for the beautiful photos! At first, I thought that your photos had pretty well covered the major details of the design of this speedster, except no good photo of the underside of the chassis from the center toward the rear end, thus showing how the chassis was lowered in the rear end. However, as I stated above, the lowering method clearly shows how the chassis was lowered in the rear as well as the front end, and it is obvious to me that the overall lowering was done in such a way as to preclude any change to the original frame,....i.e......no need to cut and re-weld the frame in the normal "Z" fashion. To repeat, I really like the design of your speedster! Thanks again for the great photos,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 02:58 pm:

David - Just one more comment and then I'll "shut up"!

In looking at the two side-by-side detail photos showing inside the right & left rear wheels; comparing the spring shackle perch mounting bolt on each side where the perch mounts to the backing plate,......it looks like the bolt on the right rear is loose as quite a few threads of the bolt show and the head of the bolt in not drawn up tight against the backing plate. Should this be tightened? I guess, on the other hand, it also looks like however it is, it's been that way for a long time. Anyway,....just wondering,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Walker on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 04:21 pm:

Harold, the right brake is dragging a bit when I push the car in and out of the shop. No attempt has been made to go through the mechanicals are start it, yet. The seller assured me the engine and head are freshly rebuilt and should start on the first turn.

Just gotta have a good full day to look at everything.

Thank you, everybody, for any comments on this build and the parts that have gone into it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 10:52 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 10:54 pm:

Oops, forgot to add the questions to the previous post.

David supplied this picture of a portion of his aux brakes. Looking at the triangular piece holding the cable:

What is it called? Is it still available? Would it be better than a pulley, or about the same?

Thank you for your advice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 11:20 pm:

David nice speedster, after looking at all the pics the one thing that jumps out at me is the way the front end is lowered and designed as Mike w touched on this make sure the welds are the best as your life depends on them. If I was to drive this car I would at least renew the welds or have it check for cracks also on the design do some research on the stresses of whats going with this design. Again great speedster good luck


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration