Valve seat resurfaceing

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Valve seat resurfaceing
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 08:56 am:

The outboard motors I've rebuilt never needed valve work so this is all new to me.

Below is a pic of the #1 cylinder valve seats. The intake is in almost new condition, all the other intake seats are the same. The exhaust seat is pitted. Of the other exhaust seats #4 looks like #1 and numbers's 2&3 are much better but not as clean as the intake seats.



Is there some sort of valve seat regrinding tool that would fit in an electric drill and clean up my exhaust seats?

The engine is in the car so taking it somewhere to have it done is not doable. I have seen various valve seat cutters on ebay but $500 for a cutter isn't in the budget.

Thanks
schuh

Thanks
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 09:00 am:

Find a local auto machine shop that can install valve seats. If you have trouble, email me. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 09:41 am:

It depends on how much you're going to run the engine. If you don't intend it to run very much, all this should work fine:

I had a similar situation in my engine. First of all, I bought all new valves. Remember that you have to file the end of the stem where it meets the lifter to get the proper valve clearance, about 0.010". Also, your valve guides are probably shot, but that's actually not that big of a problem if this is going to be a relatively low-mileage engine.

I greased the valve steams first. Then I lapped all the valves like crazy until they sealed. I made sure they sealed by blowing into the ports. This is where the grease came in handy. If your guides are worn, the grease will form a seal so you don't keep lapping the valves, thinking that that is where the leak is. Then I installed the valves just like the books says.

In the end, my engine ran (and still runs) like a top! New valve seats are certainly in the future, but not at this point. I just don't have the resources to pull the engine and have new valves seats installed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 10:08 am:

So buy valves with larger stems and ream the guides and cut or grind the seats. As long as you protect the engine from the material you're removing it's not that big a deal to put valves with larger heads on and grind the seats until they clean up. Then in your lifetime you feel it's necessary to pull the engine for a rebuild put in new hardened seats and valves. So find someone with a Sioux valve grinding tool and talk them into grinding your seats. And they'll probably have a valve grinder and they can assure you have the heads of the valves ground with the correct profile to work on your new reground seats. Then drive your model t for another 100 years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 10:11 am:

Bud that exhaust seat is way too pitted and worn to salvage. As Dan says, take it to a machine shop and have all (8) new valve seats installed, as there should only be a very thin portion of the valve seat (about 1/16" or less according to the Model T Service manual) making contact with the angled valve surface. Even though your intake looks smooth, it is way too wide and should be replaced. I had all of mine done and it made all the difference in the world. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 10:32 am:

If they have a KO Lee tool, can be done with the Engine in car. (I think) Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul griesse--Granville,Ohio on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 10:45 am:

Bud----If it were me, I wouldn`t go to the trouble of removing the engine and having seats installed.That will always remain an option but I`ve had good results grinding seats that look like that using drill motor abrasive type seating tools with the proper valve stem attached to keep it accurate. There are many abrasive type valve grinding tools available for this puopose---others might help here. You don`t need a $500 rig.Happy to loan you my set if you can`t locate something....Regards, Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Wicker on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 10:57 am:

I took and cut my seats down till they cleaned up with a powered cutter. The valves were just as pitted so I put them on the B&D valve machine and cleaned them up to. laped them in...all this with the motor in the truck. Set the valve timing and fired her up for the first time in 60 years. Starts ez,about 50 miles so far...good compression.
I only did it this way to see if it would work/run.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 11:57 am:

There must be someone in your club who has a valve seat grinder they could bring to your place and grind the seats.
Very doable.
I have one and would do it but I'm 3000 miles away.
I'm willing to help out but that's stretching it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 12:28 pm:

IMHO:

1. You should not use a hard seat grinder on non-hardened seats. There is a pretty large learning curve to do it right and it is far too easy to grind away far too much of the seat.

2. A decent job can be done with the same tools that were used for many years, a cutter set with the correct pilot and a t handle. Hand powered.

3. An ebay set of seat cutters in an old wooden box is a 10-100 deal. Buy one, practice a little on an old block and clean up your seats.

4. K O Lee hard seat insert tools are available pretty cheap. I paid $50 for mine at an auction. It is hand powered and will insert a seat in 5 minutes. Read the book, practice if you have an old block. It is not hard. The new hard seat will not need to be ground if you use a centering tool to ream the valve guide for the larger valve and do it carefully.

5. Chaffins has a set of 1/16th's larger head valves that will fit if you clean up the seat nearly every time. That seat should clean up to fit an 11/16ths valve.

6. Many people use a Neway cutter set to cut the seats. Lisle makes a very similar cutter that will put the 3 correct angles on the seat in just a few minutes. It is probably not as good as a $700 Neway set but you are not building a Nascar engine or a $100,000 Porche racing engine. You are building a Model T. I paid about $125 for my set about 15 years ago and have used it for several T engines, a couple Ford tractor engines, the Wisconsin engine on a baler, etc. The learning curve is short and easy. The learning curve on an old fashioned valve seat cutter is even shorter.

7. If you do want a valve grinder and a hard seat grinder, check your local Craigslist. I've had my old Snap-On grinder set on our Craigslist for a month and have only had one response. I'm down to $400 on one that has the stem grinder attachment and the box of tools, etc.

Nobody grinds valves anymore in a shop. You can buy a Snap-on or Sioux grinder with the hard seat stones and motor for 2-500 anywhere in the country. I just paid $100 at an auction for a gorgeous late model Snap On setup that appears to have had very little use. Look around.

Again, I seldom use mine. You do not need a hard seat grinder, you need a cutter set. I have a couple nice ones and have sold several or given them away in the past few years. That system worked on every engine manufactured up until the 30's when Ford flatheads started burning valves so bad that they started putting hard seats in them. Soon all engines had them.

International Harvester Stellite seats are so hard they are very difficult to grind and get the angles on. Shops do not use seat grinders anymore, they use carbide cutters on the valve seats in a "head machine." With overhead valves, the head is easy to process in a machine rather than grinding a seat in a valve in block engine.

8. Grinding seats distributes a LOT of wheel dust on the surfaces. It is hard to clean out. Cutters deposit cast iron shavings.

9. Spend the money on new valves & a good PILOTED reamer instead of a hard seat grinder.

10. The final step of any valve job is lapping the seat and valve. Use FINE lapping compound on a good suction cup stick, I like oil mix compound better than water. Put a light spring under the valve head so it will lift the valve up when you take the down pressure off. Use very little compound. If you do it right, cut the seat right, you should have a lapped line not over 1/16th of an inch in the exact center of the valve. Rotate the stick between the palms of your hands, use very little pressure on the valve, clean it all off well when you are done, and it will be as good a valve job as any shop in the country could do when your T was young.

11. Those little machines that have a crank on the side that you can put pressure on an crank are not good lapping tools. They were made for grinding down the valve and seat to match using a coarse, medium and fine valve compound. Don't use one of those for this. Go to any parts store and buy a good lap stick with a suction cup on each end. Lick it before you stick it on the valve and it will stick to the valve and allow you to lap it.


It is cold and snowing here today, I just got back from Savannah, Georgia at 3 AM and need to get caught up on some things in the shop today but.........if you can't find a cutter set close by, send me an email and I will see if I have an extra one left. If I do, I'll send it to you. If you are putting in Chevy valves and need the washer for the bottom of the valve that holds the keepers, I'll send you a set. I bought a 5 gallon bucket half full a couple years ago at an auction.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J and M Machine Co Inc on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 12:44 pm:

Bud:
If you can find a local machine shop to come and install the seat or else remove the engine and take it to one/someone who can do the work for you. There's a big difference in having the work done right rather than "just good enough"
Grinding that seat is hopeless.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 01:05 pm:

"The engine is in the car so taking it somewhere to have it done is not doable. I have seen various valve seat cutters on ebay but $500 for a cutter isn't in the budget."

AND IMHO, there is a Hell of difference in people who have $5000 for one of your engine rebuilds and a guy who is on a frayed shoestring budget looking for a way to continue to have fun with his T.

Everybody knows that a seat cutter and a home made fix is not going to do the same job you are. But it will get his T running and driving.

I notice you didn't offer to send him a free tool to help get him back in the hobby.

This pimping is similar to this question? What kind of guitar are you playing??? Custom made Peerless Venitian cutaway flat top? Custom built Collings D-35 S Slothead with custom MOP inlay on the neck?? Or a $200 Chinese D-28 knockoff that you can pack along to the beach or the campground and sit around a fire and sing KOOOM BAY AHHHHHH???

I'm playing Collings and Peerless along with several Martins, a 1910 John F Stratton and a Scott Coa custom made fiddle with a $5000 Horst Schicker 3 star silver mounted bow. I'm playing through a $2000 Acoustic Image fiddle amp and a GenzBenz ProLT 300 watt guitar amp. I would't be seen in public with a $200 Chinese guitar. But if that is what you can afford then good for you, go play some music and enjoy it. Get by with what you have until you can get something better. At the level you play you may never need something better and at that level you may never be good enough to know the difference in anything but the price. You probably can't hear the difference in quality anyway. If you have fun singing with your grandkids on a $200 guitar and sawing on an old fiddle you bought at a flea market ------- fun is still fun.

Same deal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 01:58 pm:

Stan, I just lapped the valves on a motorcycle. My suction cup stick was to big so I found some vacuum tubing and stuck in on the end of the valve and put it thru the guide and worked it from the back side. I did not need a spring to push the valve up as I could do everything from the back side with my hands. Rotate, lift, rotate, lift and so forth. Worked very well and quick. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 03:52 pm:

I posted this on a previous thread, but I figured that I'd post it again.

Here's one of the valves that came out of my T. The scary part is that this valve came out of a running engine! Needless to say, I have a new set of valves... It was the best I could do with my meager college budget.

Bad T Valve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 04:13 pm:

Bud, Stan makes some excellent points. One thing you might want to consider if the seat is to washed out and might become too wide is a 3 angle seat. But your question is valid. Your valve seat can be repaired at a reasonable cost with your engine in the car. Just make sure you can keep it clean. Maybe your best thing is to load the vehicle up on a trailer and take it to Stan's shop and buy him a bottle of beer to clean up your seats. LOL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 07:38 pm:

Thanks everyone for the good advice and thanks to those who kindly offered to loan me a tool!!

Believe it or not I have found a resurfacer someones willing to loan me locally. (more on that in another post!)

schuh


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