I have received a couple of quotes from good, well experienced and reputable Model T engine re-builders and I was wondering if they are within the experience of the Forum Members. I have a 1919 engine that is pretty worn out so it needs the usual machine work, pistons, cam, rod and main bearings, valves, timing gears, and so forth. I’m hoping for no sleeves, but include milling the block and head. The rough prices that have been quoted for a “short block” are in the $2,500 to $3,000 range. Assuming no transmission, magneto work or freight, does this seem reasonable? At this price, the cost of buying the parts out of a catalog leaves a lot of room for pouring the bearings, machine work, assembly and profit.
Thank you for your advice.
I paid about $3000 for mine but that included the tranny, too, along with the usual reground crank, overbore, babbit, reground cam, etc. Don.
Michael, you are not too far from the Carnegie brothers in Spokane. They do excellent work and the last quote I heard from them is about $2000 if your block is good. Bear in mind that the cost of the parts does not include margin on parts, heat and lights for the shop, insurance, taxes, etc., etc., etc., etc. It costs a lot of money to run a shop to do anything.
In the end whoever is doing the work is wanting to buy new shoes for his babies, too.
First rule of business: (According to me)
You can be low bidder.
You can do first class work.
You can make a profit.
You can only do, at most, two of the above three and stay in business.
Stan, Your rule of business is VERY true!
What a great way you put it into words!
But to answer, Michael's question, I've seen a short block with machined head, new manifold, new timing gears etc and a rebuilt transmission for around $3200.00.
Now, I've got a question, everytime I hear of anyone doing anything with an engine it's always a totally new rebuild. (new piston, new babbitt, new cam and gears, gaskets yadda yadda). But I seldom hear of anyone going into an engine and doing a simple overhaul. Honed cylinders, adjusted clearances on the babbitt, new piston rings, new seals and gaskets, a new manifold etc, etc. I might be wrong but I believe an overhauled engine will perform just fine for a guy of my age who's only going to have another 20 years of limited driving. Of course some of it depends on straight rods, minimal taper and out of round cylinder wear, using available pistons (probably cast iron pistons) and so on. I figure you guys know what I mean. What I'm referring to as an overhaul is going to be a lot cheaper than a total rebuild. And I feel a transmission and rearend can be done using the same thought process. And that of course as I've tried to say comes with some assumptions. With the right used parts and a lot of part inspection, I don't know why it wouldn't work.
I do what you are referring to quite often out of my shop, Mike. If the mains and rods are with-in serviceable limits, replace valves or do a valve job, new rings, check out the transmission (although very few of those are with-in serviceable limits), re-gasket and down the road you go ! This is what was just done to this '14 that had never left the town it was sold in 1914 (that's the story I got and I'm sticking with it !)
I have I think a 1917 engine and wi would I am sure need everything from a valve job to a Re babbit and boring, I was quoted about$2,000. I bought a rebuilt for 1675.00. I did have a bit of a problem with one writ pin but that has been resolved.
You have to gamble a bit and do what ever you can afford..
bill D MTFCA 14079
s/b and I would I am sure
fingers faster than MIND
Ya steve, that's what I'm talking about. But it seems there's a lot of guys on here that figure ya got to do a total rebuild or you're really messing up. I figure with a little mechanical knowledge, the ability to properly inspect parts and the right tools, a fellow can set himself up with a real good engine without breaking the bank. Now if you're crank needs to be re-ground, the valve seats have completely deteriorated, the cylinders have .017 taper and .006 out of round and you have rods that are bent, main bearing babbitt that's warn away and fiber timing gear that on it's last legs then maybe a fella ought to consider at least a new set of rings. :-)
Mike, skimping by on an overhaul can be just fine when you're fixing up the car that you're going to be driving and maintaining yourself. But, too often, people quickly exchange the word overhauled for rebuilt then sell the car to an unsuspecting buyer.
On another note, when I rebuild a set of coils or rebuild an engine for a customer, I can't afford to take shortcuts because my name and my reputation are forever attached to them after they leave my shop.
Erich, when I brought it up it was my intention to bring an outside shop into the mix. I guess what I'm talking about is the guy who's going to do it himself (overhaul) vs bringing it to a shop (rebuild) I wish I could afford to have my engines rebuilt but the un-necessary expense of new parts and exorbitant shop labor rates will never allow that to happen. I guess before I'd rebuild I would scrap an engine if it was too badly worn. Or at least save it for someone who would want to put the cost into it. Some of the mystique of the model t for me is the opportunity to own it on a shoestring. I've not 100% dedicated my life to only model t's. I like other things in my life too. The fellow that started this thread obviously wants and can afford to rebuild. He's convinced a rebuild is his only option and that's fine. But as I said, I'm talking about the guy that wants to keep the cost down. Maybe taking the block in for re-bore is affordable but it's not necessary to put a new camshaft in. New lifter might be in order but use the rods that are in the motor or only replace one of them. Through knowledge and inspection of parts a guy can save himself a hell of a lot of money with a good overhaul. ???
I'm a licensed & insured Model T Garage, Eric - been doing it for years. "Skimping" is what the Model T world was/is all about - plain, regular folks that couldn't afford much. I keep them running for alot of folks out here in the Pacific Northwest and my name is all over them !
One needs to educate themselves about the terminology associated with this hobby - "overhaul" and "rebuild" are two completely different animals.
I agree with Steve completely. The idea that an engine rebuild costs 5 to 7 thousand dollars would scare me out of the hobby if I was thinking about getting into it. True, there is a place for the absolute top quality/cost is no object/standard of the world rebuild. But there is a place for the rebuild that will get a car back on the road with a dependable engine at a reasonable cost.
To thump a watermelon again that I've thumped before, I get a little tired of a couple people who jump right in the middle of any idea to do a home shop fix or a low budget repair and show examples of their work -- telling the guy who's trying to round up fifty bucks to do something to his engine to get it running -- to send it to them with a blank check and have it done "correctly."
Also not to get into any "Who's best" argument or anything like that, I've been in this hobby for almost 60 years and most of the T's I've been around those years were rebuilt in some guy's garage with the tools he had. I've known guys who had home made boring bars that worked as well as any commercial one; I've seen ingenious repairs done in the shop of some small farm where they had been fixing T's for years along with everything else that needed fixing on the farm; I've seen engines that ran as well as any expensive overhaul that were done by a tiny little shop in a tiny little town in Montana; I've seen people who had a lot of fun with their T's who didn't have time or money for an expensive hobby. There is a place for everyone in this. I've known Steve and his work for at least 20 years, I've kind of forgotten how long ago but it's a long time and I have never heard ONE complaint about his work. IMHO we need more people who do the kind of work that is tailored to what the customer wants, needs and can afford rather than people who are only interested in how much revenue the shop can generate.
I just came back from the Hilton Head, South Carolina Concours (note the spelling, there is no E on the end) There were some of the finest T's in existence there. 1909 two lever #131 was there. It was an amazing car and they drove it up to get their trophies. One gorgeous T that got a (Palmetto ?) award was a 1910 owned by Bill Evenden from Florida. There were a couple other two lever cars, some gorgeous early brass cars and the one with the pull out camper that Herb from Florida built. These cars are the best of the best of the best. They probably need those $5,000 ++++ engine rebuilds. But most of them were driven back in their trailers for the trip back to their museum or storage. My cars wouldn't have made it through the gate. My cars run on babbitt I poured, cylinders I bored, valves I fitted and assembly I did. Not everyone has the shop that I do but I think it would be a better hobby if more people bought tools and did more of their own work instead of listening to the people who tell them to ship the engine and a ten thousand dollar check.
I do a lot of work on my own Model T's, but I would be reluctant to work on someone else's. The reason is liability. If I were to do the same work on mine that I do on the same car if it were to belong to someone else is as different as comparing apples to pineapple. On my own car, if it doesn't work as I had hoped, I continue to tinker with it until I get it right. I can only blame myself it is is not right. However, if I were to work on your car (assuming it was my car but you owned it) And I did exactly what I had done on it if it had been my own, and it did not work properly, you would blame me and I would get a bad reputation.
With the above in mind, a professional rebuilder is concerned with liability, and reputation. So he is going to rebuild everything whether or not it needs it. That way he has the least damage to liability and reputation. If he is completely honest, he will charge a reasonable price including cost of parts and labor. And yes his experience is also a factor. Some "rebuilders" of other engines will not have the knowledge of Model T's, and so therefore, even though he rebuilds everything, you will still have problems.
I guess the thing I am trying to say is check around with club members who have had their engine work done, and get their comments and recommendations before you choose anyone to do the work. Quality usually comes with a price, but high price doesn't guarantee quality.
Norm
Here @ Ford-N-More and Antique Auto Ranch in Spokane, Wa a Model T short block on your core costs $1750.00 This includes Cyl bored, New babbitt for both the rods and mains, Reground cam, Adjustable Lifters, New stainless valves, Modern keepers and retainers, New pistons, New rings, New timing gears, New cam bearings, Reground crank, Decked head surface. Items that are not included in the cost are replacement seats, Cyl sleeves, Crack repair, High lift cam, Balancing,and Manifold surfacing. We hold our engines to a high std. We take a lot of pride in the durability of our engines. 7 out of the last 10 Montana 500's have been won with our engines. We offer a guarantee on our Standard rebuilds: Two years on labor, one year on parts unlimited mileage during the time.
Stan, Thanks for the reference!
Steve, please define overhaul and rebuild.
When I lived in California, about 1975, the state defined what parts an automatic transmission had to have installed in order to be sold as a rebuilt. Those parts included two seals and one bearing which cost about $4.00 total then, if I recall correctly. Other than that it was only clean, paint and return. We called that PAR maintenance in the navy. They may have defined an automobile engine in similar fashion, but that did not make the local news and I don't have the exact details in either case or situation.
Norman,
I disagree with your second paragraph
regarding "So he is going to rebuild everything whether or not it needs it" - that would be a "professional rebuilder" who's shop I would stay clear away from ! Educate yourselves prior to having any outside work done whether it is work done on your T or your modern iron.
James,
I would consider an "overhaul" to mean just that - rings, valve job and check of the overall condition and repair as need be. I would consider a "rebuild" to mean new everything !
Growing up on a farm in Southern Idaho, I helped Dad rebuild several truck and tractor motors. He was a mechanic at PIE for a few years before going back to farming which he had also grown up with. When in high school I took shop class alongside all the other farm kids so have a fair background in engine rebuilding and have not been afraid to jump in and tackle some T rebuilds. However, I know the limitatiins of my equipment and skills. I have started out with a bare block and had a local machinist bore the cylenders and insert valve seats, ream the guides for Chevy 350 exhaust valves and then taken it to Dave Johnson in Wilkerson, Wa to have the babbit poured. I alsa had Dave do a 1918 Chalmers short block job. When working on the current 26 Foredor I took the transmission up to Tom Carnegie to do the rebuild. The reason for this long discourse is that there is a lot involved in rebuilding a T engine--tools, time, and expertice. We get what we pay for. The mechanics have kids to put shoes on and mortgages to pay. What, they may even want a little left over to work on their own T. Knowing the cost of rebuilding a T engine using the mechinists for just piece work, I would be suspect of the job I was getting for only $2000. It is not at all unreasonable to pay $3000 to someone who is not sure of what he is going to get into with your engine before even touching it. We need to be more considerate of those that help to keep this hobby going!
Sorry Mike, rereading my post and then yours, I am not intending to step on anyones toes, I am referring to a total rebuild including tranny, ready to go. You guys did a #1 job on my transmission.
Well, because I tend to become too "wordy", I debated whether or not to put my $0.02 into this thread or not, because I think Stan Howe, Steve Tomaso, Dale Peterson and others have done a pretty good job of explaining the difference between "overhaul" and "rebuild". As long as I've already stated my "warning" about becoming too "wordy",....here's my opinion on the difference:
To me, there's no question what "rebuild" means. A rebuilt engine should be just like new in all respects. I also feel that "rebuilding" is only necessary in our hobby for a show car (trailer queen) that only has one purpose, and that's to be a 100 point car that is perfect in all ways. And no question, they are beautiful to look at, and an excellent reference for "how it should be", but I really feel that show car standards only apply to a very small percentage of folks in our hobby. The opposite end of the scale is the 16 year old kid that is trying to get his "T" running on money he earns from paper route type part-time jobs. (I was one of those kids in the '50's, only with a very tired '28 Model A.) And then there are a whole bunch of us in between those extremes that I believe make up the majority of us Model T "nuts"! I'm certainly one of those in the middle and I thought it might be of some value to explain the excellent experience I had last winter with the seized-up engine out of my '27 depot hack. (Unknowingly lost all oil suddenly on a tour but that's a sad story I won't go into right now)
This story, which I'll try to keep brief, is very similar to Dale Peterson's and supports what he and others have said about the fact that it's certainly possible to end up with an excellent engine/transmission for a lot less than the $5,000, $6,000 or $7,000 (or more) that some shops charge for a "rebuild".
All I can say is thank goodness for Steve Tomaso at "Steve's "T" Works in Milton, Washington! Let me start by saying that I have no affiliation with that business; in fact, until a few years ago, I didn't even know of that business or Steve Tomaso.
Steve pretty well explained in this thread how he runs his shop and how he will provide whatever service his customers want, need, and/or, can afford. What I hope to do is to explain my experience last winter that resulted in getting my depot hack back on the road with as little expenditure as possible.
I know I said I'd try to be brief, but it's not one of my strong points. My Dad taught me that you can usually take a look at a guy's shop and tools and get a pretty good initial idea of what kind of mechanic you're dealing with. Well, again, in the interest of "brevity", I' ll just say that immediately after walking into "Steve's "T" Works", your first thought will be,....."why would I go anywhere else?" And by the way, my depot hack doesn't leak a drop of oil, however, my old '23 touring is another story, and if I drive the touring up to "Steve's "T" Works, I bring my own cardboard as Steve's driveway is as immaculate as his shop! O.K.,....here's how the depot hack got back on the road with engine and transmission that I'd confidently drive on any long distance tour without hesitation:
I'm 71 years old, and with some physical limitations due to health problems, however, I bought an engine hoist on sale and it was money well spent for sure. I took the engine and transmission unit out myself and I can truthfully say that due to the engine hoist, I never broke a sweat. I did however discover a front crossmember that was rusted, cracked and deteriorated to the point of manditory replacement! That WAS a tough job for an old guy like me, but I managed that while the engine/transmission was up at Steve's "T" Works.
Steve completely tore the engine down to "bare block" and of course, all of the necessary machining was done that you would expect for a seized up engine. However, Steve discovered a number of things that needed attention (to say the least) that neither he or I counted on. For example, one of the triple gears was also seized up on the pin, probably because somebody had welded that triple gear pin into the flywheel (which was cracked) instead of the normal press fit. This meant another flywheel of course, and similarly, as good as this car had always run, Steve found that two of the three transmission drums were completely worn out, and the third was "questionable". Steve was able to locate very good used parts to overcome these problems, which of course saved me a lot of $$$.
I guess this brings me to a major point in this "saga". And that is, Steve kept me appraised of everything he found that needed attention, besides the things we both knew would be necessary to overcome the normal problems with a seized up engine. We had several "meetings" where Steve would give me "options" that would be less costly than brand new parts that frankly, would have been unnecessary expense. For example, three brand new drums for the transmission would have left very little change out of $1,000.00! We also had a "meeting" where we went over parts catalogs and prices and found out, for example, that high compression pistons and rings would only add about twenty bucks to the cost of the new parts.
My point is, we found a number of cost saving "compromises" that saved a lot of money but that would be every bit as good as a more expensive approach. I really feel that if a shop is unwilling to work with you like this, like Steve did with me, well,.....I'd look for another shop. And by the way, besides Steve's "T" Works, we have several shops here in the Pacific Northwest to choose from as others in this thread have mentioned.
My whole point is, I ended up with an engine/transmission that I firmly believe will be dependable and reliable as a Model "T" can be, for something less than $4,000.00. Of course, I also put the engine/transmission back into the depot hack myself, but that wasn't much harder that when I took it out.
I guess my point is, if a shop tells you something like,....."well, to do it right, it'll cost at least (some unGodly figure) well,....you can be sure you'll end up paying at least that horrible quoted amount or more, and it's just not necessary. For what it's worth,.......harold
Guess I was not too clear about the high compression pistons & rings; meant to say that they only cost about twenty bucks more than standard pistons & rings would have cost.
One must ask how many hours it takes to rebuild the engine and the cost of parts, then we must consider shop time and wages. If you are doing them on the assembly line and all with the same specifications it is one thing but if you go into an engine rebuilding machine shop and ask them to rebuild your engine it is another thing. At about at least $65 an hour here in Long Beach, CA it must take at least 40 hours to rebuild one at one at a time. So that's $2600 without parts. How do they do it for $2000 and give you a good product? Slave labor or is it just junk ?
They must be doing out of their garage at home and using used parts. I just don't know.
Great Discussion! Thank you all for your advice. I consider your opinions and experience the best resource available in my efforts to restore my Model T. I'll be posting with more questions soon.
Good.
Fast.
Cheap.
Pick two, and only two.
I knew a guy who owned a WW2 era GPW (Jeep) and he had 14 grand in the engine alone......
It looked better than it did when it rolled off Ford's assembly line.
Frank said: "How do they do it for $2000 and give you a good product? Slave labor or is it just junk ?
They must be doing out of their garage at home and using used parts. I just don't know."
We do it for $1750.00 at Antique Auto Ranch. We build the best engines in the business in my opinion. Slave labor? That may be true. There are times I'm sure when I'm working for less than minimum wage. That happens when you work for yourself. We use only new parts of the highest quality.
Frank, your point is well taken but, There's now way I would turn down good used parts in a "overhaul" of my engine. Last winter I overhauled my transmission and put used drums, including the clutch/brake drum in, and had absolutely no problem doing it. I even used the bushings that were in the drums. After measuring the clearances and the wear on the gears and making a good assessment of the parts I was happy with all 3 drums. I was pretty amazed to find a clutch drum that wasn't all chewed to heck but I guess they're out there. And I even put most of the original clutch discs back in. None of them were burnt and the wear was minimal. When I did the triple gears I replaced the pins and weighed each of my gears as well as checking the clearances on the bushings. I have no fear of the gears locking up in the pins. I inspected the ring gear and was happy with what I saw and put it back on the flywheel. I recharged the magnets, put in new brass screws for the magnet holding plates and put in a new coil ring. I was happy with the spring tension at 2 inches and used the 4th main that had been in the car. After new kevlar bands and new gaskets everything went back together without a hitch. I drove the car all summer and was very happy with the transmission's performance in every way but one. I should have rebuilt the hogshead and put some form of seals on the pedal shafts. And I cringe at the thought of pulling it back off because the gaskets sealed so good on it. Hmmm. Afterwards I had Andy Loso "rebuild" my rear axle. I'm so happy with his work. He was fair with his price and the quality of his work is excellent, and what I really liked with Andy was that he was very willing to discuss things up front and listened when I had questions. So I believe many of us that are comfortable with our skills can do a lot of the work ourselves. And to be honest I would have done the rear axle instead of Andy doing it if I'd thought I would have had time and my health would have allowed it. But I couldn't do it. And it's so nice to have guys like Andy Loso and Erich Hylen in our club and as friends. With them and some very good machinists and other restorers available I guess I could say that for Model T's I'm living in the best of all worlds.
At the risk of being more wordy than Harold I'd also like to say that, to me a trailer queen goes from the trailer to the judging area and back to the trailer. I doubt it would go on a tour. Years ago I watched guys push cars into the World of Wheels car show in Minneapolis. I though they were doing it to keep the noise, fuel use and engine wear down on some of the cars like the rails and altereds. However I learned these cars were pushed in because they had hollow blocks as well as other parts missing because they had no intention of driving the cars in and nobody was going to know the difference anyway. And, I'm also convinced I wouldn't take a car across Australia, the length of Africa and all the way to Moscow without having the engine, transmission and rearend completely "rebuilt" before I left the house!!! And then to do it in a brass T. Wow!! I think that car should be put on display and someone should take it on a tour around the world and it's story should be told.