Front wheel bearing howl and discussion.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Front wheel bearing howl and discussion.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Adams on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 01:20 pm:

I had the T out the other day and while in a left turn I heard a fairly loud howling sound that sounded like (I would think) a fast turning tire rubbing on a bent in finder.
If I hadn’t heard the sound years ago on a modern car, I wouldn’t have the foggiest idea of what it was.

I bought the T about a year ago and had pulled the front wheels to look at the condition of the outer bearings. It seemed that the area was mighty stingily packed with grease as though whoever did it didn’t really know what he was doing or he just wanted to not see all that excess grease that should be there.

I have just pulled my right front wheel and find that the outer race turns easily in the hub. I’LL BET THAT IS WHERE THE HOWL IS COMING FROM!

I am sure that a new race will still spin because the hub opening surface is (I am sure) now worn. Is there any shortcut but acceptable remedy for this?

Where do I go from here? Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated?

Gene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By karl schlachter on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 02:10 pm:

J. B. Weld is youre friend in this case


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 02:45 pm:

I usually peen the inside of the hub with a very sharp punch, clean well and install race with a sleeve and bearing set compound such as locktite 660, other brands work as well. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Adams on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 02:53 pm:

Thanks Karl,
Would that be to remove the race, get the area spotlessly clean of grease and reinstall the race with some JB Weld spread (probably sparingly) around the area inside the hub and all done quickly?
Gene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 05:17 pm:

Eugene, I have tried to fix a hub with JB weld and it did not hold up. The best way to fix this problem is to find a better hub and install it. It is not expensive or difficult to do and you will have better results.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 09:23 pm:

I use lots of JB Weld for lots of things. Front wheel bearings will NOT be one of them.
A better hub would be the best advice. Even though it means changing the hub. You may want to tighten the wheel while you are at it.
The worn area can be built up and re-machined, but that generally means taking the wheel apart also.
A steel shim, along with Lock-tite (spelling? I am not at home.) can be done. But it is not really advisable.
Drive carefully, and wear a funny hat! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 09:33 pm:

There are a lot of lock-tite products that will secure a wheel bearing race in place. Just my .02 but I would not use JB Weld to secure a wheel bearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 11:24 pm:

If there is less than .005" wear use the Loctite.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 01:34 am:

Do not use JB Weld for any hub bearing. A friend's car had that done and when the JB Weld crumbled under the pressure, it made a huge mess.

Very simply, you need a better hub. Sometimes parts wear out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 11:12 am:

As stated above, if the gap is less than 0.005 inch, loctite 660 would do well, if greater, a sleeve may be your answer.

In the process of restoring my car, one of the outer races was in fragments. When I went to put a new race in, it just fell in. I took the wheel to a machine shop in town. They made a sleeve to take up the space and installed the race using their press. Best $50.00 spent to have a safe hub. To get a new hub cap to fit, I used a rear wheel puller to re-size the threaded area by removing the bolt on the tool, spreading it with a screw driver and starting it on the existing threads. I installed the bolt and clamped down. Then loosened the bolt, turn it further in and clamped again. I repeated this until the entire length had been re-sized. Worked like a charm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 01:28 pm:

"Best $50.00 spent to have a safe hub"

A safe hub would have been one that was not all worn out. They're still out there and cost well under $50. How thick was the sleeve? How thin is the wall of your hub? The outer bearing area is fairly thin walled to begin with. When machined out to accept a sleeve you've now gone even thinner than when you began. I don't mean any of this to sound chastising or to belittle your efforts but, you still have a worn out hub that is no safer than when you began. Please consider looking for a better one and eventually replacing what you've got.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Adams on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 03:51 pm:

Keith,
It looks like a peen job has already been done in the past on both wheels. Pic below. Of course I have no idea if any locking compound was used.

I have ordered some Locktie 660 and I have ordered both new outside bearings and races. They are not called race anymore... it's now called a cup. (how un-descriptive!!) I know the new ones will still not fit like they should. I will then decide what to do.

I found this interesting short video about Locktite 660
http://www.henkelna.com/industrial/loctite-videos-12944-12974.htm
and Google search for the primer http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4RNQN_enUS454US454&q=locktite+7649

peen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 08:05 pm:

Eugene, I see what you mean, I usually do a lot more peening than that. When you get your new races(I'm old school) you don't have any thing to lose by doing a test fit and then make the call. You can always do as John says and have a shim made. I think good hubs are harder to find than one thinks. Last time I tried finding a good one in my stash, I went through 5 before finding one that was usable as I found it. All had loose races or cracks, fixable but did'nt have the time to do so. Good luck and have fun, KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 11:07 pm:

If its a little loose, then Loctite it. If its more than a little lose then JB weld it. If its just plain sloppy then get another hub, or hold your nose and use JB weld anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Adams on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 11:49 pm:

Thanks for all the great advice so far. The Forum... what a great place to learn… freely given by like-minded folks. I love it.

Here are a couple of pictures of how I had previously dealt with a buggered-up hub edge.
The round chainsaw file can probably be bought 2 in a package a most hardware stores.

The words on the pictures should explain things sufficiently well.
Gene

buggeredbest filetext


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 - 01:43 am:

i was told to shrink the hub with heat. Never tried it though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Adams on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 - 07:44 pm:

At the beginning of this post I talked about hearing a howling sound and it being the 2nd time to hear such a sound.
Has anybody else heard this howling sound? It wasn’t high pitched or shrill or low like a groaning sound but a medium pulsating Woowoowoowoo. When this happened to my modern car, I was never told by the mechanic what caused it.

It was not a grinding sound like as if it were bearings. So I believe it was caused by one of the slipping races. Both outside races could be turned with my fingers. The inside ones seem to be tight.

Can you climb with this guy without getting some fear of falling?
http://www.artifacting.com/blog/2010/09/15/climbing-a-1768-foot-transmission- 7 min 18sec


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 - 10:24 pm:

Jerry, none of the hub was machined out. The sleeve was made to fit the hub, then the inner cut down to accept the bearing race.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 - 11:19 pm:

John,

That sounds like a better scenario than I had assumed. Happy touring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 09:01 pm:

There is no guarantee that if you do it yourself and install the cup at what you perceive is true center, that it will be truly centered, for, there is always the possibility that it has worn the inside of the hub off-center, so your perception by the naked eye may be off substantially.

I would take it to a machinist and explain the problem then have him install a new cup and make sure it is centered and true so the wheel will run true and not wobble. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 06:59 am:

P.S. Also, I'm not sure I would trust any epoxy such as JB Weld or Steel Devcon in such a hostile, high impact area as this. In addition to the stresses of the revolving wheel, lateral stresses from steering/cornering and the downward pressures caused by the weight of the car on the lower portion of the constantly spinning cup, I think the JB Weld might fail at some point. Probably better to have the inside of the hub turned and an oversized cup pressed in. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 10:48 am:

"...I think the JB Weld might fail at some point. "

I know it will, I've seen it happen.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Adams on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 10:51 pm:

Just a little up in this discussion I asked a question but the question was surrounded with too much other blah

I will ask again.

HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD FRONT WHEEL BEARINGS HOWL?
Gene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 11:53 pm:

To directly answer your question: no
They don't run fast enough to "howl" anyway.
I heard "dry'ish" bearings on the front of my '27 Tudor which was more of a scratchy sound but, having worked with bearings most of my life, I knew what it was and from where it was coming........and luckily got at them in time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 12:22 pm:

I've heard then howl on modern front wheel drive vehicles. If left long enough they start to growl, low at first and then slowly get louder and louder.


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