Magnet Mounting Dilemma

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Magnet Mounting Dilemma
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J. Wilcox on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 11:30 am:

I have been on hold in assembling my transmission for several months. I can’t get magnet mounting screws long enough to go completely through the ring gear with enough to mushroom them. I purchased a set of screws from Lang’s and a set from Mac’s. Neither was long enough. It’s an original ring gear and I have the correct screws, based on the treads. I’m using the Original Parts with the exception of the screws. The ring gear is approximately .41505 in. thick.

If I purchase a new ring gear and the correct screws, will the ring gear be thinner than mine or the screws longer? I have seen many pictures posted that indicate that others may not be having the same problem. The original screws that I removed appeared to be nearly 1/8th of an inch longer before they were staked at the factory.

Thank You


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 11:54 am:

I haven't had a problem with the screws from the suppliers. As long as there is there is some showing above the ring gear use a small chisel to stake them. Put an + on each screw, should be enough to hold them. I would not use lock-tight as you would not be able to do the final adjustment to check for height. Are you using the correct magnets for your setup? They should be 3/4" thick, are the screw heads below the top of the keepers? Just a suggestion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J. Wilcox on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 11:56 am:

Picture Third Try


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 11:58 am:

Michael, I just measured 2 I had here in the shop, one at .368 the other .375, Hope this helps. Don't know if either of these is original. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 12:10 pm:

Couple of other things you might try, make sure the ring is fully seated on the flywheel if so, grind a dip in the ring where the screws come through so the stick out further, don't get carried away, grind a little at a time and don't get it too hot in one place. Looks like any screws you get from the suppliers will be the same length.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J. Wilcox on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 12:11 pm:

Magnets are about .7415 to .7435 at the low part on the end where the spacer and screw are located. There are places on each magnet that are higher but they are only slightly higher than .75. The screw heads are well below the top of the keepers since the screws are smaller than the originals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 01:28 pm:

Your flywheel may have been originally in a non-starter engine with no ring gear. Several people have mentioned putting the flywheel in a lathe and turning a groove for the ring gear in those early flywheels. Maybe the groove was not quite deep enough on your flywheel, although that does not appear to be the problem on your photo. Making the groove slightly deeper by about 1/16th inch might solve your problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J. Wilcox on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 03:18 pm:

James:
That's a very interesting observation. The serial numbers (3 346 262) indicate that the engine is a 1919 but it is in a 23 touring. It could be a transition flywheel, ring gear or even mounting screws? Who knows! Based on the suggestions I have received I've been thinking of counter-sinking the flywheel mounting holes to allow some mushrooming, machining a groove around the ring gear to bring out the screw ends and now machining the flywheel to set the ring gear closer to the magnets. The only thing I have not looked at is the aluminum spacer between each magnet and the flywheel.

It would be nice to solve the problem with the check book by buying new parts, but half the fun is learning about the car and improvising.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 10:07 pm:

The aluminum spacers set the height of the magnets at the outer edge to match where they are bolted at the center. Only change that is made there is with a hammer :-) to get the right height of all the magnets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 07:49 am:

My first flywheel restore did not work well. I bought a new set of aluminum spacers, miked the heights and found them to all be exact. That appeared to be an easy restore at that time.

I installed them and found the magnet pole heights to vary by .022 or a little more. Then I miked the magnets and they also varied in height by the same amount.

The hammer treatment was the only option left for me.

I have been told that all the 1919 engines came with the ring gear flywheel, even if they were in non-electric vehicles. I know this to be true in a few cases, but I can not confirm the engine history in any of the non-electrics that I helped add a starter to for ease of cranking.

I also know that some people have cut the ring gear grove in early flywheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 09:57 am:

The guy who rebuilt my tranny - without magnets - used 6 mm screws. Original pitch is 24/inch. 1 mm pitch is 25.4/inch, just enough difference to be self locking.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 12:36 pm:

Did you notice Keith's posting where he mentions having 2 ring gears at .368 & .375 thick? Yours is .415. Looks like your trouble is in the ring gear.

If the gear really is too thick, it might mess up your starter bendix as well. The bendix gear will travel inwards to engage at a certain distance. However, if the ring gear is too close to it, the bendix gear flange will rub possibly break off eventually.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J. Wilcox on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 03:28 pm:

I did check out the difference on my ring gear. Now that you mention it, when I removed the starter I noticed that there was no bendix spring, bolts or counter weight on the gear. I found them in the transmission in little pieces along with a broken magnet, mounting screw and some chewed up coils. That's why I'm a little paranoid at this point. Maybe I should start off with a new ring gear and the matching screws. Mine is a little pitted anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 04:33 pm:

We make the original style screws for the original ring gear, Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 04:45 pm:

Jerry, a good catch that I overlooked. I just measured a new one that I recently purchased and it was almost exactly .375 in thickness.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 05:07 pm:

The length of the original screws are 2 23/32" if I can read the flurry blueprint I have of the screw.

And just for the record - the thread is rolled #14-24 (NOT 1/4"-24) and that is just below 1/4" and even 6mm in diameter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 07:24 pm:

Jerry, I wondered when anyone was goin' to catch that. I was'nt goin to say any thing else. Have fun, KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Clipner-Los Angeles on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 11:14 pm:

Good thing about a new ring gear is it is a harder (durable) metal that will hold up better then the older, softer originals, especially if anybody is going to go over to 12volt system. Dad went that way and chewed off teeth in 4 places.


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