Two-piece torque tube and radius rod question...

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Two-piece torque tube and radius rod question...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 09:32 pm:

On the March, 1914, Model T I'm working on, the original rear end has a two-piece torque tube, which according to Bruce's book was replaced by the more commonly-seen one-piece tube in 1913. This car is pretty original, so I think that we have to accept that this two-piece design was used into at least mid-1914. Or has this since been corrected in the Model T community?
Anyway, after studying the Ford manual, the MTFCA rear end rebuilding video, Bruce's "Bible" photos, Chaffin's booklet, and examining some show-winning brass cars in a museum the other day, there seems to be an inconsistency about whether the rear radius rods had lock washers between the rear nuts and the "ears" of the U-joint housing (removable on this Model T). Bruce's book shows an assembled two-piece torque tube photo apparently with lock washers in place, while on the very next page of his rear end bedecker, he shows a 1915 one-piece torque tube without these large washers. The video says that lock washers are to be used on the one they're rebuilding (a one-piece). I am confused because the use or deletion of these lock washers as spacers could affect the axle housing alignment if tweaked too tight or left too loose, assuming insufficient threads are available to bring the nuts together with the "ears in between.
Is this as simple as two-piece torque tubes did use lock washers here and one-piece didn't, or vice-versa, or ????. This rear end had been disassembled at one time and rebuilt very poorly, as evidenced by the markedly damaged pinion gear teeth compared to the pristine ring gear and loose bolts inside, even ones that had been safety wired. So, I can't trust using this assembly as a guide. By the way, there were no lock washers on this rear end when I disassembled it.
Marshall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 12:06 am:

It would be wise to use the lock washers. Whether you do or not has no affect on the alignment since that's set by the nuts in the rear of the ears. Use a tape measure between common points from the flange ears to the axle tube (outboard end) or a radius rod bolt. Be sure both sides measure equal with the rear nuts against the ears. Then tighten the front nuts.

On 26-27, Ford did away with the nuts on the back side and used a forged-in flange on the radius rods. I still measure these.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 06:53 am:

Ford did not use lock washers. You won't have any trouble with those nuts loosening if you tighten them on assembly.

Very important to carefully measure the distance from the U joint ball to the center of each axle shaft and tighten the radius rod nuts to achieve perfect alignment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 05:05 pm:

Actually Royce, Ford did provide a lock washer at the radius rod rear nut - part # 2550 - 9/16" as listed in a 2/1/1916 Price List of Parts listing it for 1909-16. Refer to paragraph #621 in the Ford Service book for correct installation instructions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 10:26 pm:

Thanks, Ken, Royce and Steve for your input. Then are we back to lock washers for post-1914 and none before that? This would seem to bear out what I am reading/seeing in the manuals/videos and show cars that I have studied during this past week. It may seem like a tempest in a teapot to most people on this website, but I feel it's important to determine whether lock washers were used on the rear radius rods prior to 1915 or not, more for design features than aesthetics. Perhaps beyond fulfilling the traditional role as a lock washer to keep nuts from turning, they actually acted as spacers? I think I will go with how this rear end appeared in the chassis when it came to me = NO lock washers, MTFCA video and other publications notwithstanding.
Thanks again to those responding to my inquiry.
Marshall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 - 10:53 am:

I recently had the opportunity to do some repair work on a 1914 Runabout for the 3rd owner and the story is this Ford was owned by two previous Ford Dealers in Chehalis,WA and had never left town. I removed the engine to hone & re-ring, replace valves and replace bands. I documented alot of details as the chassis had from the looks of it, never been disassembled - it had lock washers at the radius rod - torque tube joint. There are several fellows that visit this site that are far more knowledgeable on the very early T's and perhaps they will add to this discussion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 - 11:34 am:

Marshall

Have removed many radius rods with worn threads at the ends from loose hex nuts.

There is a lot of stress on the radius rods, twisting of the rear axle, on driving and braking, and hitting road ruts, flexing of the frame.. Henry designed the drive components on the 3-point, or triangle. Those important attachment points have to be secure.

The Ford flexible [twisting] frame requires all the factory parts to be there, lock washers at the radius rod rear nuts, cotter pin at the front nut, wood blocks and bolts at the engine pan arms, and wired nuts on the studs of the wishbone ball joint :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 - 04:21 pm:

Well, in light of recent posts, I guess I WILL install lock washers behind the U-Joint housing's "ears" after all. I just need to ensure that the torque tube's pinion bearing spool seats into the axle housing opening without bending the radius rods. The nuts on the radius rods are all the way to the back with no threads showing behind them. That may indicate that lock washers had been in front of the nuts at one time, otherwise the nuts would be further up on the threads, right (closer to the "ears")? Because this is a two-piece torque tube, it won't be a big deal to pull off the U-joint housing and add or delete the lock washers. That won't disturb the seating of the pinion gear spool as it would with one-piece torque tubes. I wonder if that's why Ford initially used two-piece torque tubes? I can see no other advantage.
Marshall


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