Watts clutch

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Watts clutch
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 05:24 pm:

Considering changing to a Watts clutch while the motors out since I have to replace warped plates anyway. Have heard a couple good things about Watts and have also heard not to use the round spring supplied with it. Does anyone else here that has actually used this style clutch have Pros and Cons? Dont want to put it in then regret it and have to pull the motor again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 06:11 pm:

Hi Pat, Call Langs and get the TH400 clutch. Its the best of them all. The hub is heat treated, has 42 teeth at the right angle, the plates are made by Raybestoes. Its the best off all worlds. The plates will out live you and it gives a great neutral even in the coldest weather. The others are ok but this one is the best. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 06:21 pm:

Pat -- I have used many Watts clutches in many transmissions and don't care to use a different type. I like them a lot. If you buy one from RV Anderson, you will get a kit with an extra-strength spring and a push ring which is already modified to accommodate the Watts clutch. (The push ring pins need to be ground down a bit.)

Any time an aftermarket clutch is mentioned here on the Forum, Royce chimes in that if you knew how to properly adjust the stock clutch, you wouldn't need the Watts. Your turn, Royce. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 06:51 pm:

Pat

PM Dave Husson. I believe he's a great fan of the watts clutch. Has a half dozen cars with watt's clutches in them (if I remember right).

Cheers
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 06:55 pm:

Yes, Dave is a big fan of the Watts clutch. His last name is Huson. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 07:48 pm:

Mike, what Royce says is true.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 07:54 pm:

I've got no problem agreeing with Royce. It's not the clutch as much as the adjustment and driving habits. I'd just put in new stock plates but be sure the clutch spring is good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 08:08 pm:

Pat:

I'll second the suggestion Mike Walker posted.

Get the clutch from R.V. Anderson.

I didn't....... and had a problem with the round clutch spring slipping on the ball cap, resulting on less spring pressure. Had to replace the spring in the car, won't do that again !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 08:38 pm:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a Ford clutch. Cast iron lugs on pre 26 brake drum were meant to wear out in time. Furthermore, there is no reason to have a perfectly free neutral. 15 million got by without it.
I just don't understand all the fuss.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 11:32 pm:

My Model T philosophy, when Ford built them he built them the way he wanted. When you build it,you build it the way you want. To each his own.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 12:59 am:

I have the Watts, or that type, and wouldn't go back to the other.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 01:02 am:

Right on Ted!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 07:33 am:

Ford clutch is superior to the "Watts happening my T won't move" or "Jacked up" / "turbo trouble" ones.

The lined clutches provide no advantage , yet cause all manner of trouble if adjusted improperly or not driven carefully when they burn out and leave yor car undriveable. Then you get to pull the engine all apart to fix it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 12:58 pm:

Richard Gould:

Take a look at this brake drum and then tell me you don't understand what all th fuss is about. Its your T use what ever disks you want. I would like to see you hand crank your T in below freezing weather, with steel disks. Again its your T, use the steel disks if you want

brake drum

Royce in Dallas TX:

I really doubt that you ever saw a Watts Clutch burn out. I was wagon boss on some of the biggest National Tours the MTFCA ever had and kept close tab on the trouble trucks. Never have I seen any one have any trouble with a Watts Clutch. I know you will say that you have seen them burn out. If you drive cross town once a month then the steel disks are fine. For some one that does a lot of serious touring the steel disks will destroy an expensive brake drum. I have seen the LUGS so eat up by the steel disks that you could turn the disks in a circle. THERE WERE NO LUGS LEFT!!!!!
I have had numerous transmissions come into the shop that had the steel shoes destroyed on the 26 brake drums also. I will try and post a picture of one of the shoes that I took out of a transmission. They were all like the one in the picture. By the way Watts Clutches are NOT LINED!!!!

Royce if you want to continue damaging your expensive brake drums DO SO, its your car, but I hate to see you constantly criticize a good product.

Ruined Shoe:

ruined shoe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 02:21 pm:

I've seen drums chewed up like that too Dave. I've also seen lots of original drums come out of engines in good / great / perfect shape. I think the ones in bad shape are from various kinds of abuse like never changing the oil or stomping the pedal with the throttle half way open. Driving technique and proper maintenance can be seen in every T engine you take apart.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 03:17 pm:

I would like to see you hand crank your T in below freezing weather, with steel disks."END QUOTE"

David Huson is right, When clutches have cold oil, and it don't take much, hand cranking is not fun.

We use both clutches, Watts, and turbo 400. I like to use the turbo 400, but if it needs adjustment, do it then, you can't leave it slip.

The Watt's clutch works EQUALITY well, and it, I believe is the most Bullet Proof.

WHY a Whatt's , or turbo 400.=== As Dave said cranking, pushing around in the shop, Pushing because of on gas, Pushing because of lack of power on a hill, pushing because of break down, to get it off the road, and on, and on.

Will the stock plates work, yes, but With Out the Many Advantages!!!!!!!!!!

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 03:19 pm:

So if properly installed/maintained they both work and no minds will be changed. Where have I read this before?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 07:20 pm:

Dave, my post was a joke, I thought everyone knew that I use and endorse Watts clutches. We've exchanged emails about this. In fact, you forwarded one of my emails to others.
You probably just forgot my name. No problem, I' ve had a few senior moments myself, like when I urinated in the sink at a public bathroom. Another joke, don't ban me from the forum ;^)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 07:36 pm:

You guys will probably just roast me like you do Royce, but I gotta say I haven't seen the need to use an aftermarket clutch. The stock clutch works just fine in both of our T's. I suppose if I had any of the problems you guys keep talking about, I might consider another type, but as of yet, the stock clutch works just fine for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Archer on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 05:33 pm:

I might as well join the roasted too. I've never used anything but stock clutch assys. in my Ts and have never had them fail me. A couple years ago my grandson had a clutch malfunction in his speedster, when we disassembled it, found notches in the drum caused by the discs. I filed the notched down, reassembled, problem solved.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 06:19 pm:

Happy Thanksgiving Mr and Mrs Ed Archer from John Danuser Fulton Mo. Did that 25 in NOS rim work??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 06:38 pm:

FYI, I have used a T400 clutch and burned it out because I didn't know the right way to drive and didn't adjust it when it needed it. That said, there are new clutches you can get that are made for drag racing with the turbo 400 clutches on cars. these are made to slip and withstand the forces of a thousand HP motor. They aren't cheap, and the transmission shop won't give them away, but they are only about $50 for the few you need. You'll need to cut your own notches with a dremmel. That said, the last time I pulled mine, I debated putting these in (even purchased them) and at the last minute put the tranny back to stock with a better drum than the one I took out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 10:04 pm:

Noel Chicoine:

A lot of locals bring their Tranis to me to overhaul. I would like to look into the clutch you are talking about for drag racing. What would I ask for if I went to a transmission shop?

In case some of you don't know what kind of guy Noel Chicoine is, I would like to give an example. On one of the Colorado/Wyoming Tours a 26 coupe could not make it up Battle Mountain Pass. Battle Mountain Pass is a long steep pass 9872 feet high. Noel Chicoine pulled over in his T hooked on with a rope and pulled the coupe to the top.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 08:02 am:

One transmission I repaired had the problem with the triple gear bushings swelling and seizing during a long and slow low speed parade on a rather hot summer day. They got about 40 miles on their Watts clutch and the notches got four times as wide. Other than that they are great!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 09:30 am:

I have and do hand crank all my T's in freezing and sub freezing weather. I am often the only person who drives a T to our local club meeting. Rain, snow, temperature, none of those things keep me from driving a T. I have warm clothes and side curtains. The proper oil selection and proper adjustment of the clutch are key to being able to crank your T in any temperature.

Ditto pushing the car around the shop, apparently you don't know how to adjust the clutch properly or have too thick oil if this is a problem for you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 09:52 am:

So reading the above post, It looks like everyone is telling me to use a T400 clutch and a WATER PUMP.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 11:31 am:

I think that one major factor that everyone is missing, is that a properly adjusted Ford clutch with the proper spring was purposely designed for the specific engine, transmission, and drive-line that it interacts with. It allows a little bit of slip when shifting into high gear. There is enough slip to make the shift to high gear nice and smooth as well as protect the crank shaft & drive line from a sudden shock load. The stock Ford clutch is designed to slip a little when shifting into high gear... This acts somewhat as a "shock absorber" between the engine and the drive line... The BIGGEST BENEFIT the stock Ford clutch will give you is that it insures against damage that can be caused by less-experienced drivers over the long term. I can tell right away if I drive somebody's T that has any type of modern clutch in it. The first couple times I shift into high gear, it "Bangs" into high gear until I get the knack for the EXACT spot that the clutch locks up and can very carefully feather it at that spot every time I shift.

Now, with that all said; If you are an "expert" Model T driver that has been driving your T a lot for several years, and know how to shift, and know that the car shouldn't "bang" into high gear when you shift it, and you can develop the "knack" of carefully shifting a T with modern clutches in such a way that you are not causing that "bang" or sudden shock load when you shift into high gear, then the modern discs may be of benefit to you because of the SOMEWHAT free-er neutral it will give you.

I have seen some mechanical damage issues that I believe were mostly caused by modern clutch discs, however, as there is no properly trained "Modern Clutch CSI Team", it would be difficult to prove anything absolutely and scientifically.

What I can claim, more appropriately, is personal preference... The properly checked, prepared, and adjusted stock Ford clutches with a good 90-110 pound spring when compressed to 2" height produce a smooth shifting, positive clutch that does not slip and is a joy to drive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 02:33 pm:

Adam, the quick engagement you are referring to is the Turbo or Jack Rabbit clutch, those have bonded lining and engage quickly like you observe. Watts clutches are different, like Ford clutches, they engage with a little slippage.
Its pretty well understood that you cannot adjust the Turbo or JR clutches to achieve the same slippage without the very real risk of separating the lining from the disc. Watts clutches are not lined, they are solid fibre material, you can adjust them to whatever you desire.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Archer on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 12:43 am:

Hey JohnD, Thanks for the Thanksgiving wish to Karen and I. The rim was a perfect fit. I attached a picture of the old truck doing its job so you could see your rim on the left rear. I could use another one of those rims if you run accross any. Thanks loads!#4 Hauler


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 12:09 pm:

I think that one major factor that everyone is missing, is that a properly adjusted Ford clutch with the proper spring was purposely designed for the specific engine, transmission, and drive-line that it interacts with. It allows a little bit of slip when shifting into high gear."END QUOTE"

I don't think the Ford clutch was Designed for slippage, I think it is just the natural by product of it.

How else could it be with out lining.

If Ford could have gotten by with Half as many clutch plates with out complete slippage, he would have!

There is no down side to lined plates. If you can burn up a set of lined plates, it is not the plates fault!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 12:13 pm:

I for got to add, just like the rest of the car, the clutch was designed for cheap!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 12:24 pm:

My dad started driving Ts in 1938 and drove them until his death in 2010. Not just driving as a hobby, but for transportation. I have been driving Ts for 30 years. Neither one of us ever had any issue with the stock clutch or the brake drum lugs. I'm not going to criticize the other options because I've never used them but, given the track record, I will leave things as-is.

BTW, if it's good enough for Ed Archer I don't need any more convincing.


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