Inner seal failure

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Inner seal failure
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 12:58 am:

Has anybody ever had a rear axle inner seal fail? A few months ago I noticed oil on my bumpers behind the right rear wheel. I removed the roller bearing and found the rubber boot ripped off of the metal washer. I installed a new set of modern seals and a new set of outer felts. Before installing the new inner seals I cleaned out the axle tube and coated the back of the seals with permatex gasket sealer. When I installed the sleeve I made sure it fit firmly against the seal to prevent the seal from spinning. I waited a few days before driving the car to make sure the sealer was dry. Last week the problem returned. I removed the wheel and bearing to find that the boot ripped off of the metal washer again. What do you think about this? I am going to use the modern outer seals to prevent future leaks but, wanted to see if anyone else has had a similar problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 05:05 am:

Odd, have you ever had the axle apart to check it out? I'm thinking the axle may have a rough surface where the sealing goes?
I see you have 2 26 T's - they had a leather inner seal originally with a hardened retainer that is infamous for sometimes scoring axles - even until they break. Hopefully the axles only needs a polish :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 09:07 am:

I'm with Roger. Sounds like something wrong with the axle. The seal is only four inches into the housing, so maybe with the bearing out and everything cleaned up you can see if there's some axle damage.

On the other hand, I find it hard to believe we're right because you've had plenty of experience rebuilding rear axles and probably would have spotted something obvious. I'll be interested to see what you find.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 10:34 am:

test


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 10:42 am:

Not impossible I suppose.But it would have to be really bad to tear the seal apart like that. Steve, I'm going to ask a really stupid question especially since Steve J. says you have axle experience: are you installing the seal in the right direction? I can see the bearing tearing the heck out of the seal in short order if it were facing out instead of in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 10:43 am:

Stephan, it sounds like your bearing is the culprit as it may be digging into the seal and spinning it,try turning the bearing around and ckeck it with a piece of cardboard. Just another idea.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 11:13 am:

Does the axle move up and down with the bearing in place? It's likely the bearing and or sleeve are worn. I loaned out my rear axle book and the service manual, so I am not sure what the clearance should be, but I'm sure someone who reads this post will give you that information. If the bearing and sleeve are in otherwise good condition, a shim around the sleeve between the sleeve and the housing can be used to take up some of the slack.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 04:20 pm:

Both of my rear ends are completely rebuilt. Both have new axle shafts and sleeves. There is no up and down play in the axle shafts. Also, the seals were installed correctly. The odd thing is the boot is okay it just tore off of the metal washer.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 05:37 pm:

The seals are a tight fit on the axle. You should pre-lube the seals where they rub on the axle to prevent seizure to the axle. We reduced the contact area of the new seals about 50 percent to help prevent that from happening although we have had no problems reported. I know Mac's makes a seal which has a wider seal area than ours. Perhaps that is your problem. The metal spring of the leather type seals rubs on the axle unless shortened and can cause damage to the axle right where the new seals would contact the axle. Any damage there could cause the seal lip to seize on the axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 06:16 pm:

I always lube the seals before installing them.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 07:33 pm:

Too much oil in the differential? I understand it is supposed to be an inch and a half below the fill plug.

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 12:17 pm:

If this happened both times on the same side/axle I would suspect the housing may be bent, causing the axle to be off centre putting undue pressure on the seal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 12:49 pm:

Ken, the last time this happened I replaced both the seals on both sides and found the inner seal on the other side failed also. I also checked the housings to make sure they were not bent.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 02:09 pm:

Did you use seals from Mac's or Glen?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 12:44 pm:

Roger, I think they came from Lang's.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 01:05 pm:

Today's mfg seem to be shy to mark their product with name or location, guess no pride in work anymore! Sure would be nice to see a brand or identification so we could know who's is who's!

Used these new ones, back a while ago...maybe 3 years? They had the 'long' cup nose to slide on the axle, but can you believe it? One came off easily for me too. Inspection showed that that style had the rubber secured to the metal washer with Two-Way adhesive tape! Eeegads...no wonder the rubber cup came off the metal washer.



Even using silicone grease to pre-lube the seal came apart.




So now am using the better style with the 'short' nose towards the axle shaft, and that rubber seal is well bonded to the metal washer. Guess this is the one Glen makes, but no name on the pkg. Got these from Lang's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 01:47 pm:

Dan, my seals look like the one in the second to last picture.

Thanks,
Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 01:54 pm:

Stephen

Those are the un-preferred style. Best to re-order and get the 4-Star type :-).

The newest with the short nose also has a 'recess' in the OD of the rubber seal, so it fits flush into the inner housing shaft, and the Hyatt sleeve won't stand proud off the new seal.

These newest inner seals are superior to anything yet!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 01:55 pm:

Thanks to everybody for your help.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 04:56 pm:

Stephan, The seal you refer to appears to be a Mac's Antique Auto seal. It is similar to the original seal we made. When We had a delay in delivery of new seals Mack's decided to copy our design and make their own seals. The problem is they didn't know that we had redesigned the seal to reduce the seal friction to the axle by reducing the contact area. We also added a recess on the outer diameter to reduce the thickness of the seal where the sleeve makes contact. I do not know what type of bonding agent they used for the Neoprene but it doesn't sound good. I do know we have had no complaints about our seals whether they be the original or new variety.


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