OT Why tractors have just one tank

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: OT Why tractors have just one tank
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 03:16 pm:

Many tractors made in the thirties had two fuel tanks. You would use gasoline from the small tank to get the thing started, then switch over to cheaper kerosene from the big tank to do your work.

Yesterday I was in the local farm supply store and saw kerosene on sale. It was eight bucks a gallon!

Here's one of those tractors. The guy's starting technique scares me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlejQumuPmg&feature=related


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 04:06 pm:

I have a 1956 John Deere 420C. Duel fuel was still an option then. Mine is straight gas though and goes through a 10gal. tank in about 3-4 hours.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 04:30 pm:

Not as scary as putting a bar in a flywheel and pulling. :-)

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 04:32 pm:

Steve,

I was in either Lowe's or Home Depot a couple of days ago (can't remember which). They had a display of plastic gallons of kerosene priced just under $10 a gallon, which was the only reason I even noticed it. I imagine the intent is use in kerosene lanterns for the holidays.

Maybe we could return to the use of whale oil. It might be cheaper. Opps. I didn'y really say that. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 04:35 pm:

When the ignition fires at 10 degrees after top center the starting technique that the owner used would not scare me.
The reason T drivers get broken arms is because the engine fires before TDC. The owner either did not retard the spark enough or the timing was not set so that it was slightly after TDC when the lever was all the way up.
The Chalmers in the video has an automatic spark advance. They had impulse mags set so they spark after tdc until the engine is turning over at a couple hundred RPMs.
I have been around a lot of hand cranking and flywheel spinning to start tractors in the 40s and 50s and have never heard of anyone getting hurt with anything other than cars and trucks with a manual spark control.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By HARRY A DAW on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 04:38 pm:

Fuel oil or diesel fuel were used a lot after starting them on gas. We had a 1936 John Deere B that we did that way. At one filling station here you can buy "off road diesel" for farm vehicles and save some tax. Another station here has Grade 1 kerosene which they sell for use in space heaters.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 04:47 pm:

I always heard that kerosene was cheaper than gas back then. That is why they used the more expensive, but easier to get the engine started on gas, then switched over to kerosene to run on for the rest of the day.
Is today's kerosene different or just priced more because they can get it?

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 04:47 pm:

Old Rocky Feller would turn over in his grave if he knew he was missing out selling kerosene at $10 a gallon. Of course not the market now as then.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 04:57 pm:

In the thirties through the fifties most households had electricity, so kerosene was no more needed for lightening purposes like it was around the turn of the century. Beginning in the fifties kerosene got a new use as jet fuel, which increased demand and eventually raised prices of kerosene as almost all planes soon were jets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 05:31 pm:

The starting technique use on the AC tractor is correct for that type of ignition system. Aaron pretty well explains it. I use the same technique to start my 42 GPWs, very different from starting a T. I am surprised how many people fear a kick back on a T. I have set the advance to get a strong kick back to show people why the T has to be started in a different manner than more common engines. Whe done correctly, the kick back stings a bit, but is not dangerous. If I had been starting my T the way I do the jeeps, I would have had more than on broken bone.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 05:31 pm:

The Model T I had in the 1950's had two tanks when I got it.

One was under the back seat, and was obviously home-made to fit the space. Its fuel line ran forward and was wrapped around the exhaust manifold about 4 times, brazed in several places, then to a 3-way valve. Obviously this was to pre-heat the kerosene, and allow you to start on expensive (and rationed) gasoline and then switch to cheaper and more available kerosene when the manifold got hot.

You could probably just as well use "coal oil," which is what was burned in lanterns in the olden days - not kerosene. It probably worked fine if pre-heated.

I never was able to get that tank and line clean enough to use -- the kerosene had turned to varnish, and nobody could tell me how to remove it.

I was able to try, though, and the little service station in the little town where I found the car still sold kerosene. It was, if I remember, about half the price of gasoline, which in those days was about 32 cents a gallon.

That kerosene was nothing like the stuff you buy at Lowe's in bottles. It was a considerably lower grade of stuff. It stank, and unless it was pre-heated, it wouldn't burn. Gotten on the skin, it felt quite oily and was hard to wash off. Lye soap did it best. You could still smell it on your hand days later, no matter how hard you washed and what soap you used.

The kerosene you buy today is far and away more refined. It's really jet fuel. I'm sure you'd find that these days the nation-wide sales of "kerosene" for a year, would about equal one fill-up of a medium sized jet, if that much. Which is to say, it simply wouldn't be economically feasible for the refinery to draw off and package a lower-grade fuel for so small a market. And since they sell so little of it, they don't care that it costs more than it ought to.

By the way, I shudder when I read on this Forum about fellows who "flush" their engines with kerosene, and run it for a few minutes with that straight or in a mixture. That was probably a good practice back when kerosene was just a step below motor oil, and was oily and stuck to whatever it touched. But not with today's kerosene! You might just as well run the engine with nothing at all in the sump. Today's kerosene acts very well as a wash-down agent, and is in fact what many mechanics have in their parts washers. Its function in the oil sump would be to wash any oil film OFF of the cylinder walls, the bearing surfaces, and the drum surfaces. I see that as courting disaster!

Having been on the periphery of that business for many years, that's my take on it, anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 05:31 pm:


Here you go, Aaron. You've heard of it now. I customized this wrist with an Allis chalmers Model B. It hurt so bad I lay down on the ground and blacked out. After awhile I came to and drove to the hospital. This is why I'm always preaching about proper cranking. I cranked that tractor wrong and paid the price.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 08:12 pm:

Fleet Farm sells it outside by the gas pumps for about $5/gal. Don't buy it inside the store unless you need a container for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Schrope - Upland, IN on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 08:32 pm:

Steve - I've never had a T kick and make me blackout, but I did get hit in the back end by a buck sheep while I was bent over fooling with his children. Like you, I climbed over the fence and lay on the ground for a while.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Schrope - Upland, IN on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 08:34 pm:

Hmmmmmmmmm..........some of you farm guys may take that wrong. I was sorting out the ewe lambs from the buck lambs.........hope that helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 09:33 pm:

Steve, if the timing was set so it fired after top dead center how could it kick back?
Are you sure the timing was correct?
Sure, I've know of guys getting hurt on more modern stuff but the timing was way off when the were monkeying with it.

Oh and when I worked in gas stations in '55 and then again in '59 & 60 gas was 29.9 cents for regular, 31.9 for high test and kerosene was 20 cents a gallon. I think we got 25 cents a gallon for diesel. Didn't sell much diesel and when we did it was usually a 190 Mercedes every couple of months or a Cummins powered Dodge semi tractor that came in about five times for one hundred gallons at a time..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 09:37 pm:

Two more off topic things I have learned this week; don't give yourself a chance to be a motorcycle splat and mind how you pull on the crank.
I hate severe pain.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 01:44 am:

That guy is just plain crazy.
If the magneto would trip off slightly early, and it DOES happen, his arm would be toast.
As for starting with a starting bar there's nothing to it as long as you KNOW your machine.......but even then it's not wise to take chances.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCEibIEWdfM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OelQ7O4HGs


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 02:43 am:

Fun to watch Craig. Some of those old oil tractors are a hoot to watch. I use to really get a charge out of watching the guys at the LeSeur Farm show in southern Minnesota fire up the old crosswise mounted Case tractors. I haven't seen one at the Albany Farm Show yet. I would imagine there's some that show up though. I really love my T's but my other love is tractors from before 1939. I use to have a 1930 Farmall Regular. I'd go out when it was cold enough to freeze the... Well use your imagination here. But anyway I'd go out when it was cold like that and I'd turn the fuel on, bring the crank around to where it was just going to trip the pawl on the magneto. Then with the choke out I'd give the crank just enough pull to snap the pawl and quickly push the choke in. The old tractor would sit and idle like it was the middle of July. After she warmed up a bit and the oil warmed up I'd go ahead and pull the throttle down and use it. Usually I used it to pull my 560 diesel Farmall to get it to run. If the 560 wouldn't start I didn't have anyway to run the sawmill. The best tractor Farmall ever made was the Regular the worst was the diesel 560. I had a tank heater and glow plugs on that 560 and if it was below 80 degrees it wouldn't start. Well, that might be a little bit of an exaggeration. But that Regular always started.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren W. Mortensen on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 09:27 pm:

Those impulse mags on the old tractors had a tendency to wear at the coupling (I think). I know my dad took the mag off of his Farmall H when it started to kick back on a crank start. Installed a starter, generator & Delco-Remy ignition. Wonder if that's what you Allis B was doing Steve?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Friday, November 23, 2012 - 01:46 pm:

Peter - "coal oil" is kerosene. Just another name for it. Even if a similar product was made from coal, it is the same kerosene.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 03:26 am:

At least in Australia, in the 1950's, there were two types of Kero available- 'Lighting Kerosene' and 'Power Kerosene'. One of them, I think it was the 'power' version was died blue, to differentiate them. We used both. Lighting kero was for burning in our various kero lamps for light, as well as in the kero-powered refrigerator. The Power kero was used in the tractor and other engines.

I would imagine that the power kero was a bit more volatile than the lighting kero.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 03:35 am:

Nearly right Dane, the lighting kero was and still is blue, power kero or some times called white kero, I was still using until the mid 1970's, it is still available in asia.


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