Ignition decision

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Ignition decision
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Wilson on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 10:01 pm:

First of all if you do not agree with this, please do not respond, I only want positive reply's to my question, negative responses will not change my mind. I want to do away with the coils. Mine are junk, and I do not want to mess with them. My T is a pile of parts, The body is a '21 or '22, don't know what year the frame is, but it is a '24 or '25 most likely. The front axle came from a buddy's '26, the drive train is all '27, as are the wheels. If this car had a traceable heritage, I would feel different about it, and respect that keeping it 100% authentic, but as it is, it has no pedigree. It is full of lock washers, more lock washers than cotter keys, and there are Phillips head screws in it. It has an electric fan, an electric fuel pump, and a modern carburetor on it. One more atrocity will not make a difference. All I want is a fun, safe, drivable car. Purists will see all of the discrepancies, but 99% of the people will only see it as a T
The question is which is the better replacement ignition, a True-fire, as it will retain the original look, which I am trying to respect and maintain, or a distributor? A True Fire from Bittner is $359, a distributor from Mac's with the current discount offered is $292.50. Not enough difference to lose the authentic look, but which will preform better? I want the car to be an errand runner, a go to see car shows in kind of car, not a show car.
Purists keep in mind both of these options are completely reversible in the future, and will not hurt the car should I ever change my mind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 10:10 pm:

The distributor is a better solution than the True Fire. Provided you understand how to set points, adjust dwell and set timing.

The True Fire sure seemed like a great idea when it was introduced but it did not alleviate owners from troubleshooting coil box wiring and faulty switches. Usually the coil box wiring is the problem that convinced people they needed a different / more expensive / electronic ignition system of some sort.

A True Fire will fail in a short period of time when subjected to faulty / intermittent wiring. A points style distributor won't get hurt from those things.

You asked which would perform better. The answer is neither will perform better than the original coils. Neither will perform better than the other one. But the distributor with points is nearly idiot proof, so for you that is going to be the best choice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 10:13 pm:

Sounds like you have time yet. I'd watch tbay for a used one.

I've always run a disturbutor, and with the automatic centrifugal advance I have in it now, it's a set and forget item. I'm getting ready to hook up vacuum advance, for better fuel economy.

Too bad you have to swat the braying donkeys.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 10:41 pm:

How about an E-Timer. They seem to be more reliable and maintenance free then a True Fire or distributor and at the same time preform at least as well as the original Model T ignition system.

I don't know what they cost.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 10:47 pm:

A distributor is time tested!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 10:51 pm:

I like the coils myself but if some day you want to go faster the coils will limit you on rpm's, the distributor will run faster with a little more tinkering, now you never mentioned a mag drive? set up right the faster the hotter, instant spark and not a lot to go wrong?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 10:59 pm:

well, my experience personally is very limited, but i have installed a Texas T electronic distributor system and i have many friends that really like it as well. thats what i would do (obviously cause i did it haha :-) ) also, you can find these second hand at hershey.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 11:08 pm:

Hi Doug. I took a Bosch distributor and removed the head. I got a " Ford " distributor from a pinto with electronic ignition and mated the two together. I now have 60,000 volts to the plugs and no points. I did hook up the lever spark advance so I have total control. 14 years of trouble free service. I had a set of borrowed coils and timer off a friends running T to start with. After the change the power is way better. I have a hill that I climb all the time. With the coils I needed to go to low to made the top. With the Distributor I make it in high gear. So I will NEVER run coils again. With the distributor it has a advance in it so when I hand crank my T it gives me about 7 degrees of advance as soon as it lights. so I dont have to hurry around and pull on levers. I can run my almost stock TT at 43 miles per hour. So Iam very happy with my set up. Every one else can run what makes them happy. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 11:17 pm:

Royce - Excellent response to Doug Wilsons request for advice,.....until your last sentence! Do you REALLY think THAT was necessary?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 11:28 pm:

Harold, sometimes my sense of humor is under appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 12:46 am:

Doug if you do your research you'll find out that the E Timer will give you the best performance with the least amount of work. It also has the original look and has been proven more reliable than the TrueFire over many many thousands of miles. If you install a dist you'd have to also add an electronic pointless system to match the ETimer.

I'm not sure I agree with Joe about a dist running faster than the Etimer thnking about the dybo comparison tests done.

Check it out. I think it was made exactly for your type of T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Clipner-Los Angeles on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 01:20 am:

Dad put the TrueFire on my car. The only probs. were dad never thought some of his probs. were poor wiring hookups instead of the carb. I've replaced the looms and soldered all the connections, rebuilt the coilbox with FunProjects plastic kit (good product !!). I found that it calls for the plugs to set at .45, but had trouble with that, runs very well at .33. If I ever have to replace it, I might try a dist. That's might !!! I do like the TrueFire.Car runs well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 02:17 am:

My car had a bad magneto so we put on an 09 V W Bosch distributor. It turns the quarter mile in 18.8 seconds and the 1/10 th mile hill climbs in 11 seconds and that is with a flat head and a T crank with splash lubrication. All it has is high compression, a good dual throat Stromberg 97 carburetor, and a very nasty cam shaft. Oh yes headers and a Layne Warford.

Some of our Long Beach T Club members run the E-timers and they love them. The 1912 Torpedo Roadster on the cover of the latest Vintage Ford runs one and he runs right along at 65 miles an hour on the freeway.

They say that if they break the engine will not run, but any non stock ignition is that way and they are sure a lot less money than rebuilding a magneto system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 06:22 am:

New distributors looks a bit too modern for me and period distributors are hard to find in good condition.. Making a T safe and dependable is a question of personal preferences.. I wouldn't buy a disc brake either, looks way too modern even though it's the best bolt on solution for safety. But if safety and reliability was our only concern, then we wouldn't mess with 85+ old cars, would we? :-)

A period solution to replace the coils is a high tension magneto. Lots of working old magnetos out there, it's the drive units that's scarce and expensive.
You can fix your own drive unit by copying this 1924 Bosch solution with bicycle chain and sprockets:
bosch magneto
Driving from the camshaft, the sprocket needs to be double the size of the sprocket on the magneto. If driving from the crank shaft, the sprockets are same size.
That's how a lot of the Model T engines in Sweden were modified in the 30's - 50's when they were used as a power sources for threshing machines etc. at small farms.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 07:39 am:

Doug, you have a good discount, go for the distributor. Texas T makes it and they will not sell it that cheap. It is $385.00 in my MACs catalog. You may be looking at just buying a distributor without the adjust rod, wires and wire loops to keep them off the exhaust manifold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 07:43 am:

Ralph, I have always wondered why no one has tried a vacuum advanced distributor and I always suspected the compression was so low that the vacuum was not sufficient to run a distributor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 08:19 am:

To answer your question, Jim: I don't know what vacuum a stock T runs, cruising at 35 mph. I suspect the reason for lack of a vacuum can is more visual than technical.

Bosch has built disturbutors for VW with only centrif advance, such as 009; with vac advance only; and most with combination centrifugal and vacuum, which is what I have.

The 914 dist like I'm running has 25 degrees centrif advance, and mebbe 15-30 degrees vac adv.

The reason for vac in addition to centrif is for better fuel economy at partial throttle.

Here's what I wrote a couple of years ago:

----------------
I'm running a Porsche 914 disturbutor with my Fronty R. I removed the vacuum advance for a more era look.

As you know, the dist must be set to fire near - and not before - TDC at cranking rpm. Centrifugal advance is minor, if any, at idle, and is a straight line to max advance. The spec on the 914 dist is 22-28 engine degrees centrifugal advance, which isn't full on until 3,000 rpm. I don't run over 2500 very much, but that curve is still workable on a high compression OHV T. A flathead takes considerably more advance. That's due to the distance from the spark to the farthest edge of the combustion chamber, and the lower compression ratio inherent in flathead design. The Z head takes less advance than stock due to its higher compression ratio, but still far more than OHV.

A vacuum servo advances the spark at partial throttle, which does not give the engine more power; it gives better fuel economy due to more complete burn at the lower compression. Some dist like the 914 have a dual vacuum servo that also retards the spark at closed throttle (idle), for smog purposes. The retard part of the servo on the dist on the 914 is plumbed to a special port on the EFI throttle body that makes vacuum only at closed throttle, so is not usable with a carb. If it weren't so much work, I would put the vac unit back on my dist, as I never show that side of the Fronty to people, anyhow.

The common 009 aftermarket VW disturbutor has only 15 degrees centrif advance, and no vac servo. It also fires #3 cyl a few degrees later than the others. You can do better.

BTW, some of the Model T aftermarket disturbutors use the 009 and turn it backwards. They lock down the centrif advance, requiring you to use manual advance. The problem with turning a dist backwards is that the rotor may not be lined up with the terminals on the cap when the points open. If you have one of those, buy a clear cap and see for yourself.

When I was running a flathead, I modified the centrif advance in a 914 dist by removing one of the springs on the counterweights, making it go to full advance at lower rpm. I also used manual advance in tandem with the centrifugal.

I have a hand vacuum pump from JCWhitney, and an Allen disturbutor machine I have used to come up with the conclusions above.
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Where is Wally Skyrman, btw?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Wilson on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 08:40 am:

Thanks for all of the good advice to confirm my decision. I'm going for the Texas T electronic.


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