Front spindle problem with bearing conversion...

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Front spindle problem with bearing conversion...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 01:25 pm:

Before I do something stupid (stupider), perhaps someone can answer my question. This %$#&^* 1914 Touring I'm trying to bring back to life has the original ball bearings in the front hubs. The owner wants to do a lot driving locally, so we are converting to the more practical roller bearings. But - as always with this car - there is a problem. Please look at the photo below. Where the inner ball bearings used to ride on the front spindles, there is an almost dished/sloping area that is preventing the new roller bearings from seating. I assume this area was made originally this way to give the ball bearings a "race" on which to roll? But how does one convert to modern roller bearings with this 1/4" area still present? The bearing slides up to it, but not over it. It wobbles on the shaft and of course, the outer nut cannot be brought down far enough. There is a significant difference in thickness between this "race" and the inner diameter of the bearing that no amount of sanding will reduce. What have guys done to make this conversion or are these spindles somehow messed up? Does this "race" need to be machined down to accept the modern bearings or do we simply need to change front spindles?
Jeez, nothing is easy with this car!!!
Thanks in advance.
Marshall
front perch


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 01:37 pm:

The easy way to remove the inner race is to strike an arc with either a stick welder or a wire feed welder while supporting the spindle with the threaded end pointed towards the floor. The race will just fall off after about 5 seconmachined are so the race cds of heat. Apply the arc to the part outside the machined area so the part can be saved.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 01:39 pm:

You take the inner race off. The new bearing has a built in spacer to move it out from the spindle the proper distant. Your photo only shows the old race in place so don't really have much to go on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 01:44 pm:

What you see there is the ball bearing inner race tight on the spindle. It will have to be removed for the roller bearing race to slide on in it's place. Later spindles have two flats on that circular shoulder behind the race to get a puller on it but obviously these early ones do not. I suggest a bit of heat to expand the race and loosen it's grip. Don't be afraid of ruining it, of course you will, and you will be replacing it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 01:48 pm:



Ball bearing set showing the inner race for the large inner ball bearing on the spindle shaft, remove it for install of taper Timken bearing set.


taper bearing set

Info on how to replace and update to new style taper bearings in Ford Service Bulletin, April 15, 1919.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Cassara Long Island, NY on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 01:51 pm:

Here is an earlier thread that included the above photos.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/301135.html?1342752955


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 02:47 pm:

If it were mine I would keep the ball bearings. The roller bearings don't offer any advantage except for being available new.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 03:45 pm:

I agree with Royce. Use new balls and go. NOS ball bearing assemblies and/or races aren't hard to find. Lots of cars have these and are driven hard with no issues of any kind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 07:23 pm:

Wow!!! So there's a separate collar on the spindle! Even after wire brushing the spindles and masking them to spray black on the back outer portions, I never noticed or suspected that there were separate collars that came off. I thought it was a one-piece deal. Terrific! I will use heat and get them off. Thanks so much for the replies. One by one I am whipping this early puppy into shape and solving these kinds of problems, learning with each new step forward.
We are converting to new roller bearings because ball bearings apparently need frequent re-lubing, whereas the roller bearings can go a lot farther once packed with grease. Removing the ball bearings to put grease in every few hundred miles is probably not going to happen with the hop-in-and-drive owner, who has MANY other cars. I was afraid this area would get neglected until a front bearing locked up one fine day. Guess who gets blamed then!?! I have a friend with a number of brass T's, who would love to get the unwanted original ball bearing setup for future restorations. So they will not be going to waste.
Thanks again to all who responded and posted very useful information. First thing Monday morning - torch time!
Marshall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 07:45 pm:

Why do you think the ball bearings needs regreasing more frequent than roller bearings? I would guess it depends mostly on how good the sealing works and you can replace the original felt sealings with modern seals - should fit the hubs regardless if there's ball bearings or roller bearings in the hubs.

Modern bearing grease is better than what was available 100 years ago. The recommendations in the lube chart wasn't very scientific (nobody had more than a dozen years experience with cars) and depends a lot on wether you ford streams and drive a lot on mud roads or if you're on paved streets most of the time :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Chillingworth on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 11:03 am:

I’m piecing together a 1917 chassis and have found the correct right and left spindle w/o the flats on the shoulder. The plan is to use the ball bearing setup as I have all the parts except one of the above spindles is missing the bearing race (Ford part # 2704). Langs said they didn’t have any of the races. Can anyone direct me to finding one? Thanks in advance.

I know this is common for 1917, but I found it interesting that my block’s casting date 4-3-17 is one day prior to the serial number assembly date. It would seem the block barely had time to cool before being machined and built up!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 11:33 am:

There is nothing wrong with the ball bearings. They are so huge, they would support a vehicle 3 times the size as a Model T. If there are no issues with the races, reuse them with a new grease seal of course! Clean up everything in solvent and you are set. Most ball bearing parts are availabe, except the cups.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 12:23 pm:

I have had '27 Chevy front spindles and hubs & wheels on my '26 touring since 1997 and have never repacked the bearings. And I have done a lot of freeway driving in those 15 years. There are millions of Chevrolet pickups and cars of all kinds running around with ball bearings in the front wheels.
in the last two months I have packed the bearings in a lot of them, I can think of a '61 Chev pickup and 3 MGs, and the bearings had not been repacked in over 10 years in each case. They did not need new bearings in any case.
The chevvy had tiny inner and outer front bearings and huge Mickey Thompson tires.
Most modern front wheel drive cars have ball bearings front and rear and are packed for life.
If you use modern (new) bearing grease those T ball bearings will last for ever in a T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 01:23 pm:

Marshall,

Don't know where you're getting advice on relubing ball bearings. It shouldn't be any more frequent than the roller bearings.

Also, after converting, you may also find that your spindle nut will now not screw on far enough to put the cotter pin through. Either the ball bearing hubs are slightly longer, or the ball bearing era spindles are shorter, or the roller bearings and cups don't seat as deeply but, it's a common thing to come up short with the nut.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 01:25 pm:

If the rest of the ball bearing races look as nice as what you've pictured, you're going to trash some otherwise good bearings for little good reason.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 02:42 pm:

I suspect who ever is telling you that ball bearings need to be lubricated more often has never used them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 05:44 pm:

Thanks for all your input and opinions, guys! Perhaps had one of the original front ball bearings not spewed its balls all over the floor as I was tapping it out from behind, we may have retained them in this car. That flimsy keeper ring is all what keeps the balls in place and is all that's standing between you and going into a ditch with a loose or locked up front hub. That design worried me for future MODERN TRAFFIC driving. If it were my car, I MAY have kept the ball bearings. But after seeing them scatter all over the floor due to very little lateral stress on them, I would not feel comfortable handing the car off to the owner, worrying about a possible front bearing failure that would injure or kill him. It's worth my peace of mind to have more modern roller bearings in place, thank you.
I am also very used to Model A front wheel roller bearings that are almost bullet-proof if not over-tightened and if they are re-greased on a regular maintenance schedule. (Enter your favorite front bearing horror story heard second-hand here...) I have never had a front roller bearing failure in 46 years of messing around with Model A's. I know of cases where the owner tightened them too much and galled them on the spindle. But that is not a design flaw. It's a human error.
Even had the ball bearings not self-destructed upon simple removal, I have to ask why Ford changed to roller bearings in 1922 (last year 1921?) if ball bearings were the cat's meow, to use a phrase of the era. Was it an economy measure to further lower the price of the cars? Or a recognition of a superior design for cars traveling faster and farther in the 1920's than the early Model T's could, given the kind of roads (dirt, gravel, corduroy, rutted morasses of mud, etc.) and their condition that limited speed.
The intention of my post was not to start a big civil war thread here about which bearing is better. Ball bearings are original between 1909 and 1921 and roller bearings afterwards. Period. That settles the issue for the purists. But for those who believe in taking advantage of design and/or materials improvements since the Model T rolled off the assembly line, my comfort level with roller bearings is higher. How many new car manufacturers use ball bearings in their hubs? The answer to that speaks volumes.
Re: Ball bearing maintenance. One of my sources about ball bearings needing frequent servicing came from no less a Model T personage than Ted Aschman in a "Tinkering Tips" compendium of his. I realize that not everything written in those two volumes is accepted 100% by the Model T community. But I have implemented many of his suggestions over the years on non-brass Model T's and have never been disappointed (I'm still learning the nuances of this 1914 T!). Other sources include first-hand accounts published in Model T national magazines in the past 50 years that relate how part of the cross-country travelers' nightly maintenance routine was to re-grease the ball bearings in the front hubs of their brass Model T's. Knowing that a Model T couldn't travel more than a couple hundred miles a day maximum on the lousy roads in this country back then, if re-lubing the bearings hadn't been a nightly necessity, the owners would have gladly skipped this messy operation.
Re: Waste of these ball bearings. Finally, as I mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread, the original ball bearing set-up in this car will NOT be wasted. They will be used in a near-future brass Model T restoration by a local Model T museum owner. I don't worry about palming these old ball bearings off on him because the farthest his cars are ever driven is between his museum and the trailer in the driveway that takes the cars to shows. A failure at 1/2 mile an hour wouldn't be as catastrophic as it would be at 35 to 40mph.
Anyway, my original question was about how to make the conversion to roller bearings, not which configuration should be used. That decision was made the moment the ball bearings rolled all over the garage floor. This was my FIRST contact with ball bearings and it wasn't a confidence-inspiring one. 'Sorry if my decision to convert to roller bearings upset some readers. If they're happy with ball bearings in their Model T's, fine. I can sleep better, however, knowing my friend's Model T won't lose its "balls" someday, followed by a herd of abulance-chasing lawyers knocking on my door. :-)
Marshall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 05:49 pm:

Typo: "...followed by a herd of ambulance-chasing lawyers knocking on my door." I left out the "m" in "ambulance". Funny - SpellChecker missed it, too!
Marshall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Pitts on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 07:04 pm:

Many of the modern front wheel drive vehicles use ball bearing assys. in the front wheels


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 07:17 pm:

Chevy used ball bearings in cars and trucks into what? early 60's, no problems and these were much heavier cars. Just my o2, KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 09:56 pm:

Marshall,
I think you misunderstand what keeps the balls in place, that little retainer you mention is only there to hold them while they are apart. Once the inner race is in place, the balls are locked in, just as the rollers are in a roller bearing.
That being said, the main problem today with the ball bearing is that many of the "NOS" races available today are actually production rejects and are not the correct size, or they have been glass beaded to remove rust from bad storage. Either way, they don't provide good service! Also, I have seen cracked outer races, so there must be some design weakness there, as I haven't run across a cracked taper bearing race (watch a bunch of folks now post that they have seen that!).
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 10:06 pm:

Marshall,
I think you misunderstand what keeps the balls in place, that little retainer you mention is only there to hold them while they are apart. Once the inner race is in place, the balls are locked in, just as the rollers are in a roller bearing.
That being said, the main problem today with the ball bearing is that many of the "NOS" races available today are actually production rejects and are not the correct size, or they have been glass beaded to remove rust from bad storage. Either way, they don't provide good service! Also, I have seen cracked outer races, so there must be some design weakness there, as I haven't run across a cracked taper bearing race (watch a bunch of folks now post that they have seen that!).
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 10:22 pm:

Thanks for your explanation, David. I see your point and can envision how the inner race keeps the ball bearings in place. It's just difficult for me to erase the image of ball bearings spilling out onto the floor while removing the races. :-) I think, however, the car's owner and my museum friend will both be happy with my arbitrary decision to use roller bearings. Everybody wins, including the vendor who sold me the roller bearing conversion!
M.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 10:56 pm:

What I had to laugh about when I read it, was the balls rolling all over the floor not being a confidence builder. Why did I have to laugh? Because one of the first wheel bearings I cleaned and packed myself, the cage let the bearings out and they rolled all around the floor. And it was a tapered roller bearing.

David D hit the nail on the head. That chintzy "C" ring only is supposed to hold the balls in place to make assembly easier. I have also seen them fall out. Once the bearing is installed and adjusted, the ring does nothing. The cups do seem a bit lightweight to me.
I am working on a '13 and a '15 for myself. One is getting roller bearings because the bearings in it were shot. The other is getting ball bearings because they are in nice shape, and the ball bearing cones are stuck on the spindles.
Marshall, Do what you think is best for you and your friend.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 12:42 am:

Marshall, ball bearings are not 'the cat's meow'.
They are just good enough though.
I too have had the problem where the spindle nut would not go on far enough to get the cotter pin in.
Sure rollers are better but they also cost a lot more.
A pit in a roller race will not do much harm to the roller bearing for a long time whereas a pit in a ball race will tear the bearing up much quicker.
I think what we are all saying is that the ball bearings are not that bad. Even early Dr.'s coupes had them!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 01:26 am:

Well, I've had lots of experience with ball bearings on the floor, especially when I was in grade school working on bicycles--and them bearings are a lot smaller! :-)
The worse time I had with loose ball bearings was in a Bell & Howell 16mm projector--I wasn't expecting them, and all of a sudden little pieces of metal rolling all over the work table and onto the floor! (Oh wait, the song "On Top of Spaghetti" just came to mind.)
Wayne, I've had a roller bearing come apart too (though not on a T). As for the rollers on an early spindle, I do think you will have a problem getting the cotter pin on, but you might be able to take a little off the flat side of the nut to make it all fit.
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 07:20 am:

Ball bearings are complex and time consuming to manufacture. Roller bearings are cheaper and easier to manufacture. This is why Ford and eventually all manufacturers went to roller bearings on front wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 09:23 am:

It sounds just like Ford to change to roller bearings if he could save just 2 cents per car. With millions of Model T's yet to be manufactured with the new roller bearings in the 1920's, even a 2 cents per car savings puts a pretty penny into Ford's pocket!
When I ordered the roller bearing conversion package, I also opted for the thinner outer washers so that the nut would stand a better chance of taking a cotter pin. I think these washers were rather pricey for what they are, but what's a guy gonna do - drive without cotter pins in the front spindles??? :-)
I'm enjoying this discussion with its varying opinions and personal experiences. Thanks to all for contributing! Apparently no bearings are bullet-proof after all. But with some common sense and regular maintenance, maybe both the ball and roller bearings will keep our Model T's rolling for years to come?
Marshall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 04:13 pm:

Tapered roller bearings are usually, if not always, more expensive than equivalent ball bearings so I would argue that ball bearings are more complex to manufacture. Prices are arrived at for a reason.
Tapered roller bearings are superior to ball bearings in both axial and radial load handling capabilities.

bearngs.jpg


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration