I have the True Fire and like it. When I saw the e-timer at Hershey it was basicaly the same. The biggest difference was that with the e-timer you need four coils. Any advantage of one over the other?
This should be an interesting thread.
Gentlemen Start Your Engines!!!! LOL.
Sorry guys. It is a sincere question. Why doesn't a thread about 12 volt conversion create the same upheaval??
One requires changing the timer, The other requires changing the timer and block of things in the coil box.
Forgot the add the obvious advantage of the etimer having the advantage of only taking maybe 15 minutes to change while the true fire device (i have seen one) would need two parts to check.
The etimer might have reprogrammable timing advance curve also while the other one might be manuel.
As I think about it, coils need to be replaced more than the TF, - just something more to consider. I know, good rebuilt ones last a while. Thanks for helping me think it thru.
"Why doesnt 12 volt conversion create the same upheaval".......Really? if you bring up 12 volt or 6, coils or distributor, or which oil to use, you are sure to have a topic discussion for a week at least...lol
Don't forget the water pump.
The best way to answer this one is to direct you to Mikes E-Timer page. He has some very good reading there - your question is answered within the first two paragraphs:
http://www.modeltetimer.com/
Regards all,
Garnet
The true fire system fires 2 cylinders at once. Or at least that's the way I understand it.
The e-timer detects the optimum cam position for maximum spark firing, at least that's what I understand.
The e-timer is actually a programmable digital computer in the timer cover that can sense the RPM and adjust the spark automatically. The coils are used but the points are not used in the coils. That makes the coils function more like one coil does in a modern car. There are other differences and advantages.
Robert,
The forum can go a little bonkers with a question like this and other key buzzwords but I have seen from your own past posts that you are a knowledge seeker and an advice seeker so that you can make your own informed decisions about something. Gee, isn't that why the forum started in the first place?
Think of it this way...the Tru-Fire is basically a Ford Ranger ignition system re-packaged in Model T era components and taking advantage of a lost spark so you only need the two 'coils'. Not a dig, almost wish I could have thought of that...that is exactly what it is and that is what you can expect. The timing as such still needs to be manual I am told.
The E-timer is where someone has decided that Model T coils are rugged enough and suitable enough and all of the mechanical timing lag in the point and point settings etc has been replaced by a 'chip' located in the timer itself. The chip is also a 'smart chip' that can fire at the right point when those 4 signals to a normal timer are getting almost too close for comfort at speed. The e-timer was designed for battery operation and the equivalent of automatic advance. No need for the left stick, but, you want a left stick that still let's you decide what you think is best and be better than a computer chip, the inventor also has a simple way to allow the user to program that feature back in.
Sorry to each of the inventors if I've oversimplified a few things...but at the end of the day, what is said above IS the difference and the difference to a stock ignition.
Folks can go nuts and chase a few more fractional horsepower if they want to beat it to death as a technical proof...but...it takes a whole bunch of horsepower to make any real operational performance change for an average user.
I have no fire hydrant to find in any of this, just trying to help someone whose real question I take it is to help them to sort the wheat from the chaf.
They both work as do dizzys and original coil sets set right.
The True Fire has proven to be vulnerable to failure caused by loose / intermittent wiring in the coil box or ignition switch. Modern electronics is generally reliable when it sits in a cool place that does not have any vibration, oil or water.
The E Timer is a relatively new device, and no doubt will be susceptible to similar issues in the environment of a Model T. As it is simply a $450 device that replaces the timer I personally don't see any reason a person would want one.
The E timer assumes the driver is too incompetent to be able to set the timing as he drives. It also makes the magneto inoperative, relying solely on battery to power the ignition. In this case the E Timer is identical to the True Fire in that the car becomes immobilized if the battery goes dead.
Why was I sure this sermon was coming?
Ricks:
I was picturing something else than a arm.......
LOL !
Ricks...... like putting a face on it ????
Thank you Royce for identifying the major advantage of the etimer. Over the past 40 years of T driving I have encountered enough people who are unable to grasp the concepts of adjusting the spark timing to the best position. I have tried numerous times to explain this to them in plain language. Unfortunately often enough it does not get through to them. And generally when they can't get the car to drive well they sell out and so we lose another participant in the worlds greatest hobby. If those people buy etimers then it will if improve the world we live in!!!
Thanks Royce more gospel truth for the uninformed that cannot figure out how to drive or maintain their Model T Car. I guess I will find a dry cool spot to put my airplane and my new cars so that they will continue to run as that both have modern electronics. I will spin balance everything so it does not have any vibration. Ill also put in another battery in my car and airplane so I wont drive around with a dead battery. My car, airplane, and Model T all have charging systems. Ill never fly in rain either as I don't want my engine to quit. Ill have to use oil though so not sure how i am going to fix that oily environment that I have to operate in. Guess Ill fix all the oil leaks!!!
Royce would be among the minority here who are familiar with FADEC, Fully Automatic Digital Engine Control, which is part of every modern jet engine.
You think the front end of a T is bad environment? Try -55 degrees C at 51,000 feet and high frequency vibrations. Yeh, it has to keep that big fan running, or the pilot starts sweating.
rdr
The T with good coils and good magneto with a clean timer runs for miles. I have one on which I have used the same coils for over 20 years. I even use those coils to test my other T's if they are misfiring. It has been on many week long tours and is dependable. For 10 of those years I ran on 6 volt battery because the magneto was out. Then I rebuilt the magneto, used the same coils and it still runs well. One of the best running cars on most tours.
With the above being said, there is a place for the True fire or the e-timer. That place is for a car with a bad magneto and bad coils. It would be easier to plug in a true fire than to rebuild the magneto and the cost would be comparable to buying rebuilt coils. Same with the e-timer except that you would need good coils.
The other use would be for a speedster. You might get a little more horsepower out of a speedster using the e-timer.
However it takes away one talking point (the magneto, coil, timer original type ignition) and adds another talking point. The true fire was the latest thing in ignition until the e-timer. Now the e-timer is the latest.
Anyway, if all is in good working condition, any of the 3 types would be dependable. The distributor would also be dependable. It's just like comparing apples to oranges. Both are good fruit, both are sweet, but they taste different.
Norm
Michael,
I am an aircraft mechanic / avionics technician / FAA certified A&P / FAA Inspector (IA). Aircraft electronics are my business. If aircraft electronics were as reliable as a Model T magneto / coil system, I would be unemployed.
"If aircraft electronics were as reliable as a Model T magneto / coil system, I would be unemployed...." I'll second that.
The model T magneto is about as reliable as the mag on your push mower (failure is seldom).
If I ever have a mag go dead again I will not run the engine until its fixed as I have seen first hand a running engine that had tossed a few magnet retainers, 1/2 of one magnet, and ate one winding off the field coil. To install anything which enables it to run puts you at risk of serious failure.
To further the point, once one pulls the engine it can be fixed for less than the cost of a distributor or any other system.
How often does your T get into a harsh environment like that of a jet engine at 35,000 feet?
How many wear out parts are there in a magneto/coil/timer conglomeration?
How often are magnetos the victims of collateral damage? It's still a failure.
What avionics LRU, Line Replaceable Unit, is less maintainable than a T magneto? "..once one pulls the engine.." That's real popular to do on a tour.
rdr
Actually the question should be:
How often does an aircraft see years of neglect, with heat, vibration, leaking rusty water and oil on the electronics? The answer is never.
How well do the T magneto/timer/coils work after those conditions?
How about the digital weather radar antenna drive and electronics? I've seen plenty of rusty drive motors still playing. They have to work on the ramp in summer in muggy Acapulco, suffer awful vibrations at 140 knots on a rough runway, condensation from cooling, and then freeze at altitude - within a span of 20 minutes.
The E-timer circuit board is environmentally coated, just like weather radar antenna circuit boards. It doesn't have any mechanical claptrap to gum up with sludge, or rust.
rdr
Royce,
Ah, a fellow A&P! I thought I might've been the only one on here!
You hit the nail on the head: "How often does an aircraft see years of neglect, with heat, vibration, leaking rusty water and oil on the electronics? The answer is never."
If a Model T engine was maintained as diligently as a aircraft turbine engine with the all the FAA's oversight, it would never break down.
I can't wait to start posting spectrometric oil analysis of my T's engine oil.... that should open up a can of worms regarding what type of oil to use!
Royce, I dont like maintaining magnetos coils and timers so i use trufire. I have never experienced any of the items you point out yet on two cars and many thousands of miles. The only thing i have noticed is no maintenance. I drive my cars daily for what ever it is worth.
I am A FAA certified A&P and an FAA certified Commercial Pilot and a FAA certified Flight Instructor and an FAA certified Repairman. I have built three complete airplanes. And flown nearly 20000 hours all in small single engine land airplanes mostly that I have either built or maintained myself. All had either a magneto or electronic ignition and have worked perfect for me. I am no stranger to aviation. Mike
I know nothing about planes, but don't they have 2 magneto's in case one sh-ts it's self?
You are right Kerry, I have had one fail on me in a Cessna 172.
Peter
I had a magneto fail on a new "professionally" rebuilt T motor fail after just 2 days run time. The internal oil line funnel broke off and wiped out the new mag coil. I was not happy.
Kerry,
True, an older airplane needs two high tension magnetos because they are not terribly reliable. That's why Ford (and other volume auto manufacturers) never used a high tension magneto. They are a pain in the rear to maintain, hard to install, and expensive on top of being unreliable.
The Model T "magneto" is actually not a magneto at all. Ford called it that because the word was synonomous with the idea that a battery was not needed to run the car. Which was the reason for the revolutionary ignition system in the Model T.
The Model T actually has a permanent magnet alternator. That doen't roll off the tongue like magneto does, but it is infinitely more reliable and normally needs zero maintenance provided it was assembled and adjusted properly in the first place.
The primary competition for the magneto in cars has always been the points-type disturbutor. The disturbutor is simple, lightweight, reliable and maintainable - and low cost.
Compare the disturbutor to four buzzing coil mechanisms and the Ford magneto with its 16 flailing magnets extremely close to 16 bobbins of wire. What can go wrong with that?
Oh, the Ford timer is a mechanical clap trap down in the oil, mud and rusty water, while the disturbutor is above all that.
What happened in 1927 to make the Ford magneto suddenly obsolete? Expired patents on disturbutors?
What does the TrueFire use for a timer?
I had the same experience as Mike on my first T. I drove it on battery for 10 years. Fortunately the remains of the oil line and the magneto post oiler were enough to save the bearings. After 10 years I rewound a magneto coil at the same time I was winding another coil for a T I was restoring. I pulled the engine and found the funnel in the crankcase and the old magneto coil was cut. That is one area to check when you have an engine out. Be sure there is good clearance between the funnel and the magnets.
Norm
Royce and Kerry,
Actually the aircraft magnetos is very reliable and most GA aircraft still use them today. There are a lot of new mags coming on the market that have built in electronic ignition but also have the original mag for backup and the transfer is automatic in case the electronics fail. When you have two electronic stand alone ignition systems then you have to have two complete electrical systems. One of the biggest reasons to have two magnetos on an airplane engine is that provides more complete combustion and there for makes more power. That can be demonstrated by turning one off and watch the engine RPM drop.
Ricks, The trufire has a magnetic sensor that replaces the guts of the original model t timer. We all know what happen to the Mode t ignition it was too labor intensive to repair. The man hours to set up the magneto on engine rebuild is lots. I would rather spend my time driving my car. Mike
The repop "large funnel" oil tubes have their funnels made incorrectly. They are too large and the flywheel will tear it off. Either modify a new one, or better yet, find a good original tube and use it after you carefully inspect it for cracks, etc.
Ralph, I'll have to jump into this mess to give some more info to Robert who asked a reasonable question of the group.
I believe the Truefire has some type of plastic rotor device that attaches to the end of the cam. I helped trouble shoot a fellow club members car with his TF that wasn't working properly. I was really lost.
I can tell you that without knowing how the Truefire is wired it is Very confusing to try and troubleshoot it because of how the wires are switched around.
The beauty of the Etimer is that all the existing wiring is exactly the same as it left the factory except for one. It is very obvious that the Mag is not connected but if it is working, it may be wired to charge a storage battery.
It is quick and simple to switch back to the original timer. Great thing about that is if your on a tour and something should happen most other T's would have a spare timer.
I think many people don't think about replacement parts when they make changes to their cars. How easy is it to find the part you substituted for the original. Sort of like try to find a 6V elect fuel pump at the local parts store? Good Luck.
Robert I hope this helps you decide which option you want. Do check out the Etimer.
What's wrong with an old fashion timer ?
David, To me the original timer is sort of like an old dist with points that you had to keep adjusting and replacing as they wore and burned out. I have mostly driven with an Anderson which required very little service but I wore out two and should have changed way before I did. I agree that the old fashion original look is required at least on my car.
Coils:
I love them. They sound so cool, people like to look at them, especially on the early cars But I din't have a way test and properly adjust them as they wear and loose their settings.
The timer and coils must be perfectly adjusted to equal the performance given with swapping out the old fashioned timer with an original Ford Timer that contains an ETimer. Never needs any service or wears out.
Hi Gene, If you have the wiring diagram that comes with the purchase for the trufire it is really quite simple.I can change one back to original set up in about an hour. When i bought my trufire there wasnt an etimer yet. I would guess performance is very similar. I would be interested in the etimer if i hadnt already invested in trufire which i am happy with. I have never been allowed to say this on this forum without being flamed but i believe trufire works as good or better than any other ignition system. When i go on tour with others, few can keep up with me. YMMV Mike
Gene,
The original Ford ignition system has no parts that you need to "keep adjusting". It is adjusted once and then - provided you did it right - it needs no maintenance for years or perhaps decades other than cleaning and lubricating the timer occasionally. Obviously Gene if you had to fiddle with yours constantly then it was never right in the first place.
If you don't have a way to test and adjust coils you have never known how good a Model T can run. Adjusting something that is adjusted wrong in the first place is pointless. Any number of people provide this service at very low cost. Click here to see several of them:
http://www.mtfca.com/suppliers/Suppliers.htm
You or anyone else can install new capacitors in a set of coils for under $20. A set of points for four coils might cost another $25.
Our local T club owns a hand cranked coil tester, I can't believe no one in Southern California has one that you could use for free.
Royce. Your statement is only true if you don't drive! Mechanical parts Need adjustment.
Dean - I said, correctly, that the Model T ignition system needs no maintenance for years or perhaps decades other than to clean and lubricate the timer. Adjustment needs to be done once if you do it correctly. There is no need to ever readjust anything between major overhauls of the coils or engine.
A set of coils does not need to be adjusted between overhauls, which should be once in a lifetime for the average T owner who drives a few hundred miles a year.
Dean, have you noted any change in gas mileage with the Etimer?
Royce, You must have some system that we are not aware of
If someone has a timer that never wears they must have a magical timer. Most every timer I see at swap meets and auctions have severe wear. I guess if you only go across town once a month in the summer to an ice cream parlor your timer might last a life time.
I think the original questions was which is better the True Fire or the E timer. It sounds like a reasonable questions to me
Egads, this is dangerous territory!
But, just to throw it into the mess here;
When I bought Barney, he was just a car pulled out of a barn (somewhere in Nevada, I wasn't there for the find). After he was unloaded into my driveway I started "tinkering" Cleaned the mud daubers out of the intake and the valve galley. Checked the plugs and poured ATF into the cylinders and gave it a crank and repeated that every once in a while while I did the rest of my tinkering. Found some "roller" tires as the rears had no rubber left on the sidewalls (Rare! Visible core tires!--tubes still held air!). Replaced the ignition system wiring as mice had eaten the insulation off of a lot of it--though the metal Ford tag was still there. Drained the oil overnight and refilled, put in a battery and fiddled with the ignition key until I had continuity (yes, the key was in the ignition!). Then I cranked the engine and wiggled the coils until all four would buzz. Put some gas in the very dry gas tank, rapped the carb and it stopped leaking and proceeded to crank. Note results below
After a little carb mix adjustment, the motor ran fine, so I drove 1/4 mile up to my T garage (with some misadventures along the way--related to steering and rust, not engine). Now I wouldn't suggest doing the same thing with an airplane, but it does speak volumes for the reliability of the design under less-than-ideal circumstances!
Somehow I don't think modern electronic components would have survived as well. But what do I know? I would be driving Barney right now if not for rotten body wood and I don't want to tear up the nice sheet metal, so he's waiting for a wood transplant. Um, well I did get some rebuilt coils and bronze thrust washers to use when I finish the wood project--oh and "new material" coil box liners--so I'm not adverse to modern materials!
T'ake care,
David Dewey
PS. The smoking went away once all the ATF was burned out! And I didn't have any mosquitoes in the area for a few days either!
Yes, mechanical timers wear but, they will last for years before needing replacement. When the time comes to install a new timer they can be installed in under a 1/2 hour and are not expensive. Once the coils are properly set up they do not need any attention for many years and provided you do not put together junk the magneto will out last you.
I forgot to mention that I also found that the new oil lines do not fit very well. I modified mine to make sure they would not cause any problems.
Stephen
Royce,
Thanks for your interesting comments about mech adjusting. Your amazing sometimes.
I have to agree with Mike Seager and others. If you drive your T a lot sooner or later you will have to replace those worn out mechanical parts in nearly every type of timer on the market.
Same is true with the coils unless you have some kind of new magic point material. Yes, I know they will last some drivers a life time but that is also because the car will run when they are not at their optimum. Same is true with most timers.
For several years I ran the same set of coils rebuilt by Coilman. I replaced one with a spare. Yes, both our local clubs have the HCCT and the Strobo Spark and also have guys that lots of experience adjusting them. Yes, I said Adjusting and replacing the worn points too.
You are correct when you say its pointless to continue to adjust incorrectly unless your very lucky. Seems like you were trying to refer that I didn't have sense enough to seek out help.
Be thankful we're smarter than some would write.
WOW, now, which system is better?
Dean Yoder,
I drove my 1915 touring over 400 miles last month. Drove the other two another 50 - 75 miles last month. What are you trying to say? I drove my 1912 25 miles today. Do you have distributors in all your cars? Why do you hate the original Ford system?
Royce. Lets stop using the term Years & lifetime and state Miles. It is my experience coils,timers will need major repair in 7,000 or less. My E-timer has over 10,000 trouble free miles on it.
My choice is E-timer.
Royce,
I have NO T cars tractors or trucks with Distributors. 4 of my T's have stock Ignition. I have driven over 70,000 miles with stock Ignition. It does fail and need major work contrary to your statements.
P.S. I do not hate the original ford system.
The E-timer has caused me no down time in 10,000+ miles. I can not say the same for the original Ford system
Hey Dean , aside from timer issues, have you had major malfunctions with coils and the magneto within 7,000 or so miles?
I don't want to get into the arguement about the True Fire or e-timer but as is usually the case Royce is right. I say that from personal experience.
What is hard to assess is how good are the quality of the parts being looked at in the original commutator system, it varies a great deal.
When I bought my T in 1965 from it owner I was a young 21 year old. I had never had anything to do with a T but my father and his brothers often talked about the times they had with them in their young days.
The Model T I got had a distributor on it. Other T owners in the club advised me to return it to the original system. I was given 2 NOS commutators and 4 coils. In those days there was no coil fixers so I had to follow advice printed in the Vintage Ford and from others who were in the know about such things.
Now 47 years later the car still is running on those commutators. As far as I can work out the mileage is about 80,000 plus miles. About 30 years ago I saw an article showing the conversion of the roller to 2 small ball bearings. I altered one of the rollers.
Now I have finally worn out one of the commutators insides so much I need to make new contacts as they are so thin from being cleaned up in the lathe to keep them smooth. The spare is about 5/8th worn down.
These commutators have real hard insulation not like some of the poorer quality ones. I never start the car in the morning until I have filled the commutator with lubricant. If I am going on an extended run I pull it and clean it out first.
What I am getting to is the parts involved need to be good quality, they need to be maintained properly and they will indeed last for years. Lousy quality will give you nothing but problems. I don't think any of the reproduced normal commutators are good enough and you can only expect to get a few miles out of them.
From memory Royce has said he hunts up the original ones so he has components that give great service. As is usually the case at a swap meet you only normally find those parts which the sellers deem past it, they rarely sell the good stuff. Most commutators you see are trashed because they were lousy or the owner did not maintain them properly and chewed them out.
I can leave my T for 12 months without using it, have the battery charged, check the fuel and the commutator oil and water and pretty well guarantee it will start first pull of the crank after I have given it a 4 pulls of the crank. Only time it failed to do this was at a motel where it refused to start after overnight heavy rain.
If all the components are good quality and in good condition you will get years of service from them and I love the fact I can drive forever without worrying about a battery as it has always run on the magneto. I just shake my head when people say they took the magnets of to save them causing damage or some other lame reason. The system stayed with the T for all its life because it actually works.
Hal, Be your own judge. I think the system you have and are really happy with is best for you.
Now if you want the best system you need to do your research. Read the likes of what Royce and Dean plus others say. Even try out a loaner which is available for the ETimer before you make up you mind. What might be best for you may not be the best for Royce.
Peter, If you didn't want to get into this thread, then why post? You discredit yourself with the your first statement about Royce "usually right". Of course we all know that anything mechanical will need maintaining and service, Don't we? Well maybe not Royce...
With my driving I really love the ETimer and am amazed at the performance it continues to deliver without me having to even think about any service. I have never been able to say that about any other ignition system.
Dexter,
Yes I have had points fall off, cushion spring rivets come loose. By the time you get 7,000 miles on coils the points usually need adjusting.
Peter, I am glad you are so loyal to Royce. Many of us here dont agree with all of Royces advice. I for one dont often agree with Royce. With someone of his background you would think he would have better advice. My experiences are totally different than his. He is the only one that i know of that has timers and coils that dont wear out.
Gene and Michael, I still say Royce is correct here, he stated that coils don't need to be adjusted between major overhauls. That's my experience also. As I stated I have not touched mine for years and I know many T owners who have not done so also. If you did a count at any Tour I'm sure you will find the majority of cars are running original coil systems. Yes some play up but that's always the case if the components are bad.
As most T owners only do small mileages per year Royce is saying rightly that if they have good coils and commutators it will be years before they will have to do any adjusting or replacing.
Outlaying the cost of an E timer may be a worth while for travel like Dean does but most people do tiny numbers of miles yearly, and my post was to reinforce that, for most the original system is a good one.
As I am on this thread I will comment on the original question, I thought the True Fire was a good idea and installed it for my trip to the 2008 celebrations and it lasted from Los Angeles till Kingman AR. So the statement that coils need to be replaced more often than a True Fire can be wrong. I reverted to coils and commutator to get me going. I think the quality of the product was the problem, I unfortunately got one of the faulty ones as did a lot of people as I found out when in Richmond IN.
As to the E Timer it appears to have a good record ( and it would want to have for the price).
One point that has been glossed over here is that if you use one of the "new" systems and it fails you either have to have another one on hand (as you are not likely to be able to do a roadside repair on it) or also have an original Ford one under the seat.
Run the original system and you can have for less outlay extra coils and a commutator and you will be able to easily replace a component if it does fail and as I found even if you don't have the components you will be able to easily find them no matter where in the country you may be.
On the few times I have had a Ford coil play up I have not even had to stop. I would have the kids get one from under the rear seat and would remove the bad coil and put in place the spare. Don't think you can do that with an E Timer or a True Fire.
What ever one decides it always is look at each pro and con and pick what you think suits you, and that will be different for a lot of us.
I have kerosene lamps for my car, and one sitting here next to my computer, and they work as good as they ever did, but I don't depend on them for lighting.
Same goes for buzz coils. They were obsolete in 1908, which in the T are a tribute to one man's stubbornness. From the Selden patent on, Henry Ford would do just about anything - including higher product costs - to avoid paying royalties.
Regarding the 1914 KW patents for improved buzz coils, that story reminds me of the George C. Scott movie, "The Flim Flam Man," where he cheated lots of people with all kinds of scams by taking advantage of their own greed. His bottom line was, "You can't cheat an honest man."
Henry helped Williams cheat his former wife out of a share of the improved coil earnings by swearing how little he had paid Williams. When Williams tried to collect the original amount, Henry used Williams' own greed against him. That's in the Patterson and Regan series of articles on Ford ignition from a few years back.
Some here say, "Without coils buzzing, it ain't a Model T." That's ridiculous. There were aftermarket HT magnetos and disturbutors available for the T from the very beginning, and they deserve their own place in history.
Like someone wrote up this page: "The disturbutor is simple, lightweight, reliable and maintainable - and low cost."
Why do the TrueFire, E-timer and disturbutor all cost about $3-400? Because they're worth it.
A basic rule of marketing: the price of an item is not what it costs to make, but what it costs for a competitive product or method.
Vacuum advance could be added to the E-timer without too much difficulty, and it would pay for itself in fuel savings. That goes a step beyond the goal of keeping it looking like the original obsolete system, however.
rdr
Freedom to Choose
Running a stock Model T ignition system is not as simple as most people claim. While the coils themselves are proven beyond dispute, the real issue is the setting up of the contacts. How does the every day man adjust coil contacts, as is required, so as to get top performance out of each coil? Sending $1000 for a handcranked coil tester is hardly within the reach of all Model T owners even if the testers were as common as Dandelions. The simple truth is they're neither cheap or common. I'd like to see anyone replace all four sets of contacts on the road, tweak them to that sweet spot, and then crankstart the engine. Will it run - yes. Will it run great - no!
Had the Ford system been so simple to use there would never have been a distributor developed for the T, a Jefferson tester, the TrueFire system, the E-Timer, nor the E-CCT. Being that the Model T crowd tends to be diehard penny-pinchers it makes sense that people will try and get away with the cheapest method to solve a problem. The lack of hcct's leads to the sale and use of Jackson or Jefferson coil testers; and those gave way to homemade buzzboxes and this all comes back around to the fact that adjusting the coil contacts is not a simple as many people state. Then Mike develops his E-Timer which eliminates the contact adjustment hassles - and the Model T crowd whines that it's not selling for $18.95 plus four box tops from Cap'n Crunch cereal. Every time someone bellyaches about the TrueFire or E-Timer, there seems to be the associated cry of expense.
If you want to drive a Model T and have fun, then drive it. If you want to drive a Model T and have top performance then you have to invest money in properly adjusted coils, a quality timer and a correctly centered timing cover plate. A blanket statement of the Ford system being simply the best is just BS because it isn't as simple at that, is it!
Regards all,
Garnet
"Actually the aircraft magnetos is very reliable and most GA aircraft still use them today." Mike I agree with both you and Royce on this. Royce states they aren't terribly reliable, he is correct.
You state they are reliable and your right. Here is the difference. Too often the magnetos are neglected. I don't know many folks that open Slicks on every 100 hour or annual. There is no way I will sign an engine off without doing so. I have seen issues with these that are relatively low time (well below their 500 hour inspection being due). I feel I have prevented a failure on many occasion. Royce has likely seen the outcome of mags that are not maintained and he is correct, those are not reliable.
Looking at the Model T I see it the same. If it is depending on a 90 year old field coil with rotten cotton fabric then it falls into the same category as the airplane mag that is left alone forever. Either case is a crap shoot. I have never met Royce but I suspect his T's are maintained rather than left to chance.
The problem I see with the stock T ignition is that in many cases (probably 50%) it isn't maintained. It is constantly fooled with but not maintained and that is the difference. I don't have a dog in this hunt by I did build my own HCCT and do my own coils. My car has never let me down for ignition and is one of the strongest running cars in our chapter.
Someone else mentioned T'rs being penny pinchers. Back in 04 at the Wisconsin tour my buddy and I came across a man and his wife who's T was running like crap. He had the coil box lid off and was trying to "set" coils. You could see the bright blue arc in the daylight indicating his condensers were shot. I told him I had a set of rebuilt coils that would cure that under the seat for $100 plus his old ones. He declined. Why anyone would spend the money it takes to attend a national tour and fight with his car like that for $100 is beyond me. This is the same sort of guy that will convert the car and declare victory over the coils.
A teachable moment presents itself. Ralph has never used a buzz coil in his life, therefore they are unreliable and obsolete.
Garnet, the more I learn about those coils, the less I realize I know. I learned something at Hershey this year, that I never gave a thought to before, from Mike Kosser at his ECCT Demo.
As the magnet pole passes the coil pickup pole piece the AC voltage to the coil rapidly increases and then rapidly decreases as the poles pass each other.
Depending on the point setting on each coil, the exact time that the coil produces the first spark can be several degrees of difference on the crankshaft and the corresponding piston level position.
Even with four good coils, they may not start the fire at the same piston level and that situation makes for a rougher running engine even with good coils.
Mike's new ECCT will let you fine tune the points to where the coils will all start firing at the same voltage level. This was the main advantage of the Master Vibrator years ago. Your engine will not only run smoother, it will deliver a little more power.
The HCCT proves your have 16 sparks and the capacitor can recover fast enough to provide them, but it gives no indication of what voltage level is required to develop those sparks, unless it is the later style with the secondary voltmeter.
The ECCT lets you set that voltage at the same level for all your coils, even the spare and also checks the capacitor. The price is also less than half the cost of a HCCT.
The ECCT might even win a few converts from the distributor only crowd.
James,
Actually you are correct in your first few sentences.
When you say "Even with four good coils, they may not start the fire at the same piston level and that situation makes for a rougher running engine even with good coils" you are kind of getting off in the weeds. This statement implies that a coil that makes a buzzing sound is a "good coil"? On the contrary, a mis - adjusted coil is a bad coil. Just because it makes a spark frankly does not mean it is any good at all.
When you say "The HCCT proves your have 16 sparks and the capacitor can recover fast enough to provide them, but it gives no indication of what voltage level is required to develop those sparks, unless it is the later style with the secondary voltmeter." it is again a misleading statement.
The HCCT allows you to adjust a set of coils to give a spark at the proper TIME without any double sparks. The coil voltage is an indicator of magneto health. It needs to be sufficient to develop the proper current, but does not need to be matched to the other coils to allow for a perfectly timed spark event. Having a voltmeter on a HCCT doesn't tell you anything other than the magneto is making sufficient voltage to allow proper coil operation.
I agree the ECCT is a great device provided it works as advertised. I have not actually used one.
"As the magnet pole passes the coil pickup pole piece the AC voltage to the coil rapidly increases and then rapidly decreases as the poles pass each other. Depending on the point setting on each coil, the exact time that the coil produces the first spark can be several degrees of difference on the crankshaft and the corresponding piston level position."
Voltage has nothing to do with it. The T coil is a current activated device. What you are saying is theory and proves out different.
I have placed a piece of tape on the spark ring of my HCCT and the only way to get the spark position to change was to close or open the point gap. Even then, it was a very minor movement. Points that are relatively close in gap and set to 1.3 with a single spark will fire at the same point on the test ring every time. Try the marked piece of tape and you will see it works out as I'm saying.
What is more critical is the cushion rivet position but since I set all of mine with a tool I made they are all the same. There just isn't a inter cylinder difference on coils that are properly set period.
The limiting rivet determines how many degrees after the full register position the coil will fire (it is a purposely built in mechanical delay to allow the coil to become fully saturated before firing). Too soon and you get a double spark (as there is sufficient time to give off a second weak one), too late and you'll get a weak one that is later than optimal. When setting a high tension mag up this is the e-gap position.
Hi Gary, If the magnetos on aircraft were not reliable they would have been replaced out by something different years ago. After almost 20000 hours of flying i can remember only 3 or 4 magneto failures. Check the NTSB reports very few forced landings are caused by total engine failure related to magnetos. I can still remember the days of the non-rebuildable slick magnetos that often were run past engine TBO (2000 hours) and still ran perfect.
My point is still correct. After all this talk on the forum it is coming back to my main point that electronic ignition requires no maintenance as there are no touching parts. And per your own words a mag coil and timer requires lots of maintenance to keep running perfectly. I could have two more truefires under the seat for what an HCCT would cost. Just another way of doing the same thing. Have fun driving a model t.
Yes James, The E-CCT is going to provide quite a change to the Model T world and I hope supply can keep up with the demand. There's no excuse now to operate coils with lousy contact adjustment. I don't know about converting the dizzy's though ... some folks almost need to be whacked across the head to see the light.
The very first Model T item I ever bought was a handcranked coil tester, and I bought it four months before I bought the first of my three Model T's. I saw it was going to be necessary to have one and I didn't mind spending the money - and I got to meet a real nice Model T guy too when I picked it up!
(someone want to give Robert a nudge and wake him up, methinks he dozed off !!)
A good discussion is fun!
Garnet
22 thousand words on politics? Think I need a head whacking----I use a dizzy in the salt air where I live, throw that one in the fray. Do know how to weight test a magnet though!
Ralph,
It never ceases to amaze me that you like to drive a car as old as a Model T, while repeatedly stating how the ignition system is 'obsolete'. That really amuses me.
Royce, I have bought new coils that produce a nice spark if I crank the HCCT fast enough to show about 6 volts on the meter, but no sparks at all below about 5 volts.
I can give the crank a lazy spin with a Coilman rebuilt coil and show good sparks with only 2 volts on the meter.
The StroboSpark checks the coil operation at 3 voltage levels and it appears the coils all have to be set close to the same to pass all 3 tests.
While I have not tried a few different spark level coils in an engine, I suspect it might make a difference to mix and match those coils and expect a smooth running engine.
I might have a better idea or opinion with more ECCT coil test data.
Hal, that made my day.
Stephen
Hal, the Model T ignition system was obsolete in 1908. Thinks like en bloc casting were new, and other parts were up to date.
rdr
Ralph, do you mean like the brakes, steering, suspension, cooling system, etc.?
The tranny brake was not so obsolete at the time. For example, the (technically advanced) Franklin service brake was on the driveline just behind the tranny up to 1926, when they went to 4-wheel hydraulics. However, 50 T roadsters were delivered to the NYFD with rear wheel brakes in 1911.
The Ford planetary steering is a case all its own, which I am not qualified to judge. By 1911 Germany required worm gear steering on all cars. I just know I always had a death grip on the steering wheel at 50 mph and above. I don't know of any other car that used planetary steering before, or concurrent with the T. Never heard of any patents for it, either.
Ford thermobarf cooling was developed before thermostats immersed in the coolant were invented. Ford didn't do a very good job laying out the intake and exit locations for balanced cooling between cyls, however.
Model T with its new in 1908 technology and design build for low cost, reliable operation, and toughness made the grade.
Here we are 100 years later still operating with efficiency using this old technology.
Sure, you can improve on parts and pieces, and do away or replace the original design parts and have a similar efficient machine for pleasure driving, but why? If what you want is more speed, fast stops, quick handling, then do it, but don't disparage those who like the Ford as is.
Just remember, there will be folks like me that want to stay with the Ford as built, driving today with the same power source as in 1908, and hoping to pass on this unique antique power plant, with its low tension magneto, and trembler coil ignition.
Just read the new Popular Mechanics, with its forecast for the next 100 years of new technology, and they state that gasoline powered cars will be obsolete in 2113.
So you see, don't chuck the mag, coil rings, coils to go with a dizzy, disc brakes, and 12v battery, since your T will be sitting on blocks in your garage when the gasoline is gone
Oh, Dan, I hope my comments are not disparaging of those who like the T as originally built. That's not my intent. Like I wrote above, "Freedom to Choose."
Every machine is a set of compromises working in close proximity. Disparaging those like me who point out the basis of those design decisions is what I'm seeing.
Henry Ford chose the obsolete ignition system to avoid patent royalties. That is an observation.
Not that it is relevant to the original question, but since we have drifted OT.....All the 'obsolete', 'inferior', 'troublesome' and 'unreliable' things are the very things that make me like the T. You will never see a T of mine with a distributor, water pump, fuel pump, alternator, auxiliary transmission, e-timer, true fire, or electrified gas lights. I can't wait for the day I own a brass car with a carbide generator. I like the magneto headlights on my wife's '18. And while I don't drive 10,000 miles a year, it is not because I'm afraid the car won't do it. I just don't have time and money to do so. I don't think twice about venturing 100 miles from home with nothing more than a fluid check beforehand and don't even carry spare parts and only minimal tools. I've never not made it home under it's own power. Either I'm just lucky, crazy, or else the stock T is pretty dadgum reliable like it is.
Ralph
I respectfully disagree from your observation that Ford chose the work of Huff over patent payments...heck he even paid Huff a royalty for a while
Ford used the internal low tension magneto for the reason that it was contained within the engine, part of the flywheel, and simple in mechanical construction and free from repairs that were costly and hard to do on high tension magnetos of the day.
Patent model of Ford magneto
Simple and uncomplicated parts of the Ford low tension magneto
Now compare the Ford above to the typical high tension magneto with many many parts, critical tolerances and subject to environmental effects.
As the simple auto owner of the lowly Ford, which magneto would I choose to work on, if I had to work on it at all? Or would I have to seek out an electrical/mechanical expert?
"Every machine is a set of compromises working in close proximity.' - that's profound philosophy Rick - I like it!
........drive a car as old as a Model T, while repeatedly stating how the ignition system is 'obsolete'. That's funny!
You guys crack me up! I love to read your bantering.
A the end of the day, I am thankful for you, thankful to God and of course thankful for the the Model T (not in that order)
Bob
I am sure glad that there are enough T's out there that we can still try out new things. With all the car brands that were made in the teens and twenties we are the only group that gets to play so much with our cars. So with what ever do-dads you have on YOUR car, go have fun with it today.
Years ago I bought a 15 Metz touring setting in a barn yard in ND.
It had a external mag, it used a T head gasket and I am sure other T parts.
I took the mag apart had the magnets recharged and cleaned it up.
With the engine on a test stand and a crank handle hanging from the fly wheel it ran with a few pulls on the crank.
The car had been setting there from 1920.
I like a stock T system but see it as anything easy as that Metz mag to make work.
As far as quality the Metz was a hunk of junk no comparison to a T.
Hal & All:
We will label the trembler coil/magneto ignition "obsolete" in modern terms, but in 1908 it was a tried and true ignition system and many who drove/fixed those cars of "the day" were familiar with it's workings. Ford included a section in the owner's manual on adjusting and maintenance. If an owner needed help the closest Ford garage fixed the problem.
Paul, I know very little about Metz cars. What makes them poor quality?
Stephen
Frame is very light bolted together. Drive is a large aluminum disc with a friction wheel pushed into it for a clutch. To change speed the friction wheel moves across the disc. It moves over center for reverse. The drive and chain to the rear end are exposed to mud and dirt.
When I picked the car up the ground around it was raked three or four inches deep found lots of parts that had gone through the dust bowl.
Helicopters were flying around inspecting, it was not far from a rocket silo!
Forty five years ago I cant remember the magneto brand, but I am sure Metz did not make it.
Glad you're enjoying your thread and its drifting, Robert.
"Every machine is a set of compromises working in close proximity.' - that's profound philosophy Rick - I like it!
I borrowed that from the definition of an airplane: "Hundreds of compromises flying in close formation".
Metz engine and trans.
Mag sort of looks like a Splitdorf bought by Edison in the late twenty's. My friend has one installed on a T through the generator mount. Sooner or later he will let me know if the drive has A Ford logo on it, that would be interesting!
You gotta love that Metz drive train! Snapper mower on steroids! Probably as we speak, someone on a Metz forum somewhere is discussing how to replace that with a four speed to improve it's reliability so they can tour with it.
Before Charles Metz built the Metz automobiles above, he was a partner in the Waltham Manufacturing Company, which is now primarily known for the Orient Buckboard model produced from 1903 to 1908.
The Orient was pitched as "The Lightest, Cheapest Car in America" and featured a friction drive transmission very similar to the Metz.
Photos below are my 1906, fully loaded, and a near-identical unrestored car clearly showing the drivetrain. There is a little differential pumpkin hidden to the right of the driven wheel and chain drive to each rear wheel.
The driving wheel aluminum plate is reversible to permit wear on both sides before replacement is necessary. They tend to wear a deep groove about 7" in diameter at the Reverse position — although there is a one-wheel service brake, the most effective braking, by far, is in reverse. Unless one is in a hurry to stop, engages the drive wheel too quickly and snaps a chain. Been there, done that.
I did a lot of research on Edward S. Huff a few years ago. What really got him in trouble is that his wife divorced him rather early in his career and so he would not have to give her much money for the patent royalties, he had Henry Ford's business office send him a letter for the court that he had been paid in full for his Magneto patent. This was around 1910 and rather early in the Model T production era. Later in life he fell on hard times and Henry offered him employment again at the Ford plant which he refused. Unfortunately when he went to court to collect royalties, that old letter was produced as evidence that Henry didn't owe him any money.
The Spider nickname may have come from his similar middle name which appears to have been Sayer.
This is about the final article on the lawsuit that I found.
Inventor Waits Too Long In Lawsuit Against Ford
By Associated Press
Washington, October 13. – The Supreme Court today refused to consider whether Henry Ford owes Edward S. Huff $11,000,000 as royalty upon magnetos used upon 4,500,000 automobiles.
Huff claimed he was paid $10,000 by Ford for the invention, but that he was also to receive $2.50 for each magneto used. The lower federal courts held that Huff had neglected to press his claim within the time allowed by law.
From the Galveston Daily News (Galveston, Texas), October 14, 1924
Getting back to topic.......
I recently re-installed an original Anderson timer and four re-built & HCCT calibrated coils on the '26.... after running on the E-Timer the last two years........ just to re-educate myself on the Ford ignition system.
Engine ran fine on the original ignition, 6 volt intact.
I did miss the automatic advance of the E-Timer along with the smoothness of engine operation at idle and speed.
Yesterday, I went back to the E-Timer.
The Anderson & calibrated coils are packed safely in the turtle deck just in case someone has trouble.
In two years of E-Timer ignition, and about my 3K miles of use..... some have in excess of 10K, and no problems, I have complete satisfaction with E-Timer reliability.
The only problem so far is not having a Battery Tender on the 6 year old 6 volt battery and my recent lack of time to enjoy the T. The battery charger I have juices at 2 amps and automatically turns off at full charge.