Replace or not to replace....

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Replace or not to replace....
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 09:10 pm:

Engine is out of the car and when I looked through the bendix hole I noticed it looks like someone tried taking the starter off with the bendix still attached. The coating is gone on the mag ring and the copper windings are exposed and distorted just like the above happened. The car runs good on mag (better than battery) but I've never been able to start it on mag. Is this damage affecting anything since it runs on mag? Should I replace the mag ring and magnets while the trannys out?

Does the bendix and flywheel ring gear look bad also?

Also another picture here shows the reason for pulling the motor. Has anyone seen driven plate holes elongated so far as to where they barely contact the finger screws?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 09:17 pm:

As long as you have it apart, I'd say get a new mag ring from Tony or use the MTFCA book and rebuild it yourself. While you're at it you can recharge the magnets and have it all good as new.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 09:20 pm:

The ring gear is a bit blurry but the pinion looks nice. The not starting on mag could be coils that aren't HCCT'd. or crank end play too large. ( mine started cold for the first time on mag. after the coils were done). It deserves a good look especially since it's out. What shows on the winding covering looks solid except for the damaged portion. The copper may just be a bit battered but not broken. Again it's for you to see but you'll not get a better chance since it's out of the car. Others will chime in with a repair as I don't know what to use.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 09:36 pm:

Why is the extra clamp on that clutch shaft?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 09:40 pm:

Charlie, The coils were just done by Brent Mize about 2 months ago so I dont think they are the starting on mag problem. Also here is a better pic of the ring gear, not sure if those deep chamfers at the edge of the teeth are supposed to be there, or they are wear from engagement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 09:43 pm:

Jack, I'm not sure why that clamp is there. It was put there by the previous owner. My best guess was that it was to limit side to side motion of the clutch fork. When I press the pedal the shaft slides back and forth. If this is wrong or if someone else knows anything about it .....please share.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 09:52 pm:

Three of my driven plates are like this, elongated holes for the push ring pins. Guess it has to do with the driving style of the previous owners.. Finally found a couple of good ones to use. Guess the bad ones can be repaired with some difficulty, should the supply of good ones be exhausted - so don't throw anything away :-)

Bad one:
driven plate
driven plate 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 10:53 pm:

Here's a starter ring gear that finally quit turning the engine over ! And yes, there should be a chamfer for the Bendix gear to engage smoothly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 11:17 pm:

Looks like you pulled the starter out without first taking off the Bendix. That would be the damage done with the Bendix hitting the coil when taking the starter out with it on. The teeth as stated should be beveled.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 11:24 pm:

Mark, I did pull the bendix first. Like I said in my first post, AFTER i removed it I noticed the damage, The previous owner must have done it. I just wanted to know if I should replace the mag ring or if the damage is just cosmetic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - 11:38 pm:

as of now the damage done to mag ring is currently just cosmetic, because it still works abviously, but seing as you are pulling the tranny and have the engine out and everything id say its a good idea to replace it.

as far as that plate goes, id weld it up with some high tensile rod and redrill/mill. it would be easy enough and rewarding to save parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 12:24 am:

Thanks Matthew, Wasnt sure if this caused reduced mag function or anything since it wont start on mag. So its one of those - it works or it doesnt- parts then huh?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Livingston on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 01:15 am:

Pat,

I don't know squat about Model Ts but I do know coils, motors and generators. That coil will fail sooner than later even if you reinsulate and cover it. Replace the coil if possible or the complete assembly.

Jeff Livingston


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 06:14 am:

Pat, you definitely want to replace the mag while you have the engine apart.

I seen a lot of worn drive plates but I think your wins for the most wear.:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 08:45 am:

Based on what i'm hearing, I dont want to pull the motor again to change the mag coil at some point if it does fail. I will get a new one. Does anyone have contact info for someone that does a good job of rebuilding them, or just get one from a catalog?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 08:54 am:

Pat, that coil ring looks fairly new to me, you may be able to just rewind the one coil. It sure does'nt look like cloth insulation on it. It may not start on mag because of improper gap but if you tear it d0wn you can correct all that. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 09:10 am:

I would install a rebuilt mag rig while you have the engine down. I believe R.V. Anderson and Wally S........ I cant remember his last name.
Do a search on the forum and you can find his name.
They are a little cheaper than buying from one of the suppliers and both do a great job.
Common sense tells us that whenever we do a engine rebuild ALWAYS replace the mag ring. especially if it still has the original still in it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 09:27 am:

Wally Szumowski
6146 S. Natchez Ave.
Chicago, IL 60638
Phone: (773) 586-4485
email: modeltnews@aol.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 09:38 am:

Pat,

I'd suggest getting a reconditioned coil ring from Wally Szumowski. He does them on an exchange basis. You can contact him at modeltnews@aol.com for details.

Also there is no point in doing the magneto work if you don't have the magnets re-charged.

Then get the Electrical System book http://www.modeltford.com/item/RM1.aspx. Also buy or borrow a gap gauge http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/630 plus pick up a set of brass feeler gauges. These will be needed to correctly set up the magneto.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 11:08 am:

Have you tested the magneto output? It looks like you have some shorted turns on that coil. That would decrease the output from the magneto. I would agree that if you pull the engine, you should replace the coil ring or at least that one coil.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 11:15 am:

Norm, I havent tested the output as I didnt find the problem till the motor was out of the car, but It wont start on mag even though it will run pretty good on mag, Does that sound right for a mag with decreased output?

John, I like your idea of borrowing a gap gauge when changing the magnets, I was looking at the cost of one for a pretty much one time use for me and my wallet started to cry....I'll have to start asking around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 11:21 am:

I've never been inside one. Is that wire or copper "ribbon" used in the mag. coils?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan McEachern on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 12:43 pm:

That driven plate is worn that way because who ever assembled the transmission ended the stack with a small plate rather than a large plate. The clutch ring is not designed to transmit torque thru the three pins, but that is what it does when the plates are installed incorrectly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 01:28 pm:

Put together a good mag now and it will never need any more attention. Also, make sure to replace the brass screws and check the magnets for cracks.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 01:45 pm:

thanks Dan for the explanation, that makes sense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Penrod on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 09:48 pm:

Dan, Thanks for telling me why it wore that way. I would have definitely put it back the same way I took it apart. What a catch!!!


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