One piece Brake Shoes

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: One piece Brake Shoes
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 04:03 pm:

Do all the suppliers have the ones that fit? I am going to be ordering some parts and don't want a pair of one-piece shoes that I need to spend hours on getting them to fit.....

Car is a 1925 BTW.

Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 08:27 pm:

Best to call them and ask.

Some may still have the lined cast iron shoes are that are the older 2 piece style.

Request the newest one-piece lined cast iron shoes (pair) and return policy if the vendor can't confirm the style.



New lined cast iron brake shoes (bottom)

Old stock Ford cast iron shoe (top left), and replacement aftermarket lined steel brake shoes for Model T (top right) [What I used to search out at swap meets to use in the T....until the new one-piece lined cast iron shoes came along!]


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 08:29 pm:

Meant to add....the bottom left is the NEW, the bottom right is the bad old 2 piece lined cast iron shoe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Bishop, San Diego on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 10:12 pm:

Greg,
I just ordered some new one piece shoes from Snyder's for my '17, so I'll let you know how they fit when they get here. Won't be here till Nov 29 (Takes a week?). Maybe Thanksgiving delay?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 12:29 am:

Thanks guys.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller- mississauga,ontario on Sunday, November 25, 2012 - 12:49 am:

sent you a pm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 07:01 pm:

Dan, do the new 1 piece brake shoes have to be split in order for them to function as the originals did?
I have the older lined shoes that you show. So far so good but had to alter them to get them to fit.
Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 07:04 pm:

I thought the original unlined shoes were one piece to begin with, just that most of them broke over time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 09:09 pm:

There are pros and cons for the debate over wether the brake shoe should be split or not.The Ford Service Manual instructs the mechanic to simply install the one piece shoe; there is no mention of cutting the shoe. On the other hand, a high percentage of the rear ends I have disassembled contained broken shoes. I think splitting the shoe and fitting it to the cam and anchor bolt so it rests against the backing plate is the way to go. On the last one I did, I had an older set of lined shoes. They must have been a little under size, because even with new cams and bushings, I had no brakes. I peeled off the 1/8" lining and riveted on 3/16", arced the ends a little on the belt grinder. Now I have brakes when the lever is pulled back to straight up and down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 09:29 pm:

Fellows, How often do you find one piece original brake shoes still in one piece? As Randy says, almost all are broken somewhere. If they break at the pivot hole, the brakes will still function, just like the ill fitting repros will.

I think it is good insurance to cut the new one piece ones so they will not break in the wrong place. If you are still loathe to do this, saw them half way through, so that if they do break in service, they will still be operational.

If you are not convinced they should be in two pieces, ask the makers why they included return spring lugs on the pivot bolt side of the shoes.

Just my opinion.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - 10:32 pm:

Allan

Ford made them one-piece. And Henry supplied two springs, if they weren't needed by design, the cost accountants would have hounded him :-)

I find many old shoes still in one piece.

No way will I cut apart a brake shoe, you want it round and in one piece, why take a chance of letting 2 pieces float around and impinge on a hub bolt or other structure of the backing plate, and lock up in the drum and bust a wheel?

That second spring that rides beside the brake shoe support bolt is just there for that reason...should the round shoe break at that mounting bolt, the second spring keeps the parts from spreading and causing failure.



Henry's original design engineering with over 15 million T's is rather difficult to improve on :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Peterson on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:23 am:

Dan, following your argument, there has been no advancement in automotive engineering that could make the T safer or better. We all use lined brake shoes because steel on steel is only good for holding the T while stopped. We should not replace or use any other matterial for thrust bearings than babbit, etc. Not wanting to start a fight here, but there are things that can, and at times should be done differently than Henry's design if we are to safely drive these wonderful old cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 12:42 am:

In bucolic places where it's still safe to ride horses on public roads, it's also safe to drive a completely stock (except for safety glass) Model T. No need for brake lights there.

But in my neck of the woods, operating a horseless carriage means traffic-jamming with other cars, and compromises, in the form of safety equipment, are absolutely necessary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 07:48 am:

Fellows, I wonder if making the cast iron shoes in one piece was simply a cost benefit procedure. It would be far simpler to machine one round shoe than two half round ones, and locating the pivot bolt hole would also be more accurately done. Snyders new one piece shoes demonstrate this nicely. They fit, where the separate two piece design previously offered, did not.

Just a thought.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 08:19 am:

They did not fit in my car, the shoulder bolt is a different size and required a machine shop to rectify. So I took the old 2 piece shoes and had them relined. Anybody want a brand new one piece set never fitted to a car? They are sitting on the shelf gathering dust.

The one piece design is easier to radius grind the lining according to Adelaide Brake Service that relined my shoes. We found this out when they no longer had the model 'T' jig to radius grind my shoes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 11:33 am:

Dale

Didn't mean to post that no improvements can or should be done to the T with modern materials or parts. In that respect, they are much needed benefits today to keep Lizzie running.

My comment was to 'modify' a correctly made 'improved' reproduction part, namely, the Synder's new one piece lined brake shoe by cutting it to make it become a 2-piece shoe. Ford design is a one-piece shoe.

The former reproduction shoes were made incorrectly, and were done on the cheap. Only one casting was made, and it was then flipped up-side down to provide an 'upper' or a 'lower' depending on install. That compromise made those 2-piece shoes a bugger to install, and to get to work correctly. The casting 'draft' angle was off trying to make 'mirror' image parts from a single casting shape.

The new one-piece are superior. IMHO. Only slight mod is needed to make sure the cam thrust lobes are ground down a bit, as they can grab on a protruding hub nut, as the bolt circle does include the inner edge of those lobes on the new one piece lined shoes.


See this is where the lobes will or can strike a hub bolt nut.

On install, use some attention to the brake shoe retaining bolt, it is really an axle for the shoe. That bolt should not be run down tight on the shoe. Just run it in the threaded hole in the backing plate enough to have the shoe fit flush on the backing plate. Then run the crown/castle nut down snug while holding the hex head brake shoe retaining bolt in place, lock with cotter pin. I always add a touch of grease on the 'axle' portion of the brake shoe retaining bolt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 05:06 pm:

I 2 pairs of two piece shoes fro langes at Herhsey 2011. Never used them so I returned them at Hershey 2012. Doubt they are still there but you can try.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 08:13 pm:

Ford sold them in one piece for storage purposes. However, if you do not cut them in half they will often break on one side of the pivot hole or the other. Cutting them relieves the strain and the pivot bolt and springs keep them in perfect alignment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 08:43 pm:

Glen,I'm with you on the need to make the shoes two piece. Might I add that the return springs should be fitted with the open end of the hook away from the backing plate. That way they will tend to draw the shoes towards the backing plate away from the wheel nuts and the drum.

Hope this helps.

allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 09:59 pm:

Glen and Allan

Beating a dead horse with you guys !



Silly to think a cast iron shoe in one piece was made for storage or should be cut in two. Ford wouldn't do that.

I have several NOS shoes that are one piece. Sure I have some busted ones, broken in various spots, who knows what caused that, hard braking, bolt fastened too tight, bad handling in removing a wheel, or a broken axle caused the grief to that shoe......but the design by Ford is one piece.

Yes.... Ford does admit that if a shoe should be broken only at the boss around the bolt hole, the shoe doesn't need to be replaced.... (i.e. if the break is somewhere else, you have to replace the shoe for it will cause trouble.)




Oct 1, 1919 Ford Service Bulletin

But to premature fracture the new shoe isn't necessary or recommended by Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 12:11 am:

Dan, thank you for posting the excerpt from the Ford service bulletin. It nicely reinforces my point that cutting/notching the one piece shoes is a good idea. As they state, there is no need to replace the brake shoe if it is cracked about the bolt hole, so making it crack there is good insurance against it breaking in an in-appropriate place.

I would much prefer my two piece shoes being held in place by the pivot bolt and the return springs, than have an un-restrained chunk of cast iron shoe floating around and busting a wheel.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 10:45 am:

Thanks Dan for further info about using a split brake shoe.
I do remember an old mechanic "way back when" saying not to worry about a cracked shoe since the spring is holding it together.
I am glad that the parts suppliers started making a good shoe though as the earlier repo's werent much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 11:03 am:

I've seen 1 broken shoe out of 6 and it didn't break at the pivot but about 1 1/2" above it. My 2 cents: they break because wear on the shoe & drum + improper adjustment (as in too loose), causes them to flex further than their meant to. The springs MAY have been installed to keep them operational after a break happens. They certainly have enough spring to return to the off position on their own. But my experience in installing the older 2 piece lined shoes is that they don't adequately hold the shoes against the backing plate to suit me leading to them hitting the drum bolts. Obviously I'm not for pre-breaking the 1 piece shoes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 07:04 pm:

Charlie, I too had problems keeping the two piece shoes against the backing plate, due to poorly machined/fettled castings at the pivot bolt and cam surfaces. I had to re-position the pivot pin holes. I welded a thin washer to the and of the cam to keep that end in the right place. At the cam end the faces had to be hand filed so they met the cam squarely. I over compensated and made them touch on the outside end of the cam, so that they tilted towards the backing plate. The springs need to be installed with the open end of the hook towards the drum so that they tend to pull the shoes against the drum.

The new one piece shoes are a dream to fit in comparison. Being cast in one piece and having the linings radius ground in one piece, makes for a much more accurate fit. Cutting them at the pivot bolt does not interfere with that fit and may well prevent them from breaking at an in-appropriate point.
However, this would make them difficult to re-line when worn. This is not likely to be a problem though, as it is not likely that a once off re-line would be anywhere near as competitive in price with the very good price of a whole new set.

Allan from down under.


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